Gotta love Extinction Rebellion

[Rev]

4 hours ago, maxjam said:

The current Govt plan is to reach net zero by 2030.  As I said in my previous posts even if we had the ability to move quicker than that other places around the world are increasing their carbon output and there is nothing the Tories nor Labour can do about that.

You've said this twice now, so I'll ask where does this come from?

As far as I know, the target is net zero by 2050, not 2030. 

There is a measure to encourage purely fossil fuel cars are not sold beyond 2030, maybe that's the source of your confusion?

[maxjam]

25 minutes ago, Rev said:

You've said this twice now, so I'll ask where does this come from?

As far as I know, the target is net zero by 2050, not 2030. 

There is a measure to encourage purely fossil fuel cars are not sold beyond 2030, maybe that's the source of your confusion?

Yup my bad, didn't look any further than the headline tbh.  Figured this was the Govt plan, turns out its jus tthe Environment Agency plan;

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/environment-agency-reaching-net-zero-by-2030

The Govt plan for net zero is indeed 2050;

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uks-path-to-net-zero-set-out-in-landmark-strategy

Actually just took the time to read them both,  its clear that the infrastructure and technology isn't in place yet and will take significant investment (approaching £100bn) in an attempt at reaching net zero by 2050. 

Given the huge investment in infrastructure and technology and  'As the first major economy to commit in law to net zero by 2050 and hosts of the historic UN COP26 climate summit, the UK is leading international efforts and setting the bar for countries around the world to follow'  I'm still not sure what the XR protesters want.  If we could flick a switch tomorrow and magically switch to a carbon free society, it would still have a negligible (and decreasing) effect on the worlds climate.

 

[Rev]

16 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Yup my bad, didn't look any further than the headline tbh.  Figured this was the Govt plan, turns out its jus tthe Environment Agency plan;

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/environment-agency-reaching-net-zero-by-2030

The Govt plan for net zero is indeed 2050;

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uks-path-to-net-zero-set-out-in-landmark-strategy

Actually just took the time to read them both,  its clear that the infrastructure and technology isn't in place yet and will take significant investment (approaching £100bn) in an attempt at reaching net zero by 2050. 

Given the huge investment in infrastructure and technology and  'As the first major economy to commit in law to net zero by 2050 and hosts of the historic UN COP26 climate summit, the UK is leading international efforts and setting the bar for countries around the world to follow'  I'm still not sure what the XR protesters want.  If we could flick a switch tomorrow and magically switch to a carbon free society, it would still have a negligible (and decreasing) effect on the worlds climate.

 

It can't be done on the cheap, that's for sure.  

We had a massive chance to get ahead of the competition, and benefit financially as well as socially from it, yet its been squandered by  all sides so far, I don't see that changing. 

We'll be part of the research and  developing the solutions, then become the junior partner begging other nations for crumbs of the table for our efforts. 

 

[ariotofmyown]

8 hours ago, maxjam said:

The current Govt plan is to reach net zero by 2030.  As I said in my previous posts even if we had the ability to move quicker than that other places around the world are increasing their carbon output and there is nothing the Tories nor Labour can do about that.

 

Previous road blocks have prevented ambulances from making their journeys.  Blocking the M25 or whatever they plan next just prevents ordinary people from going about their daily lives/working  at a time when the cost of living is increasing. 

The average bloke in the street isn't the problem, according to many articles such as this;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-59157836

Rather than smashing the odd window, gluing themselves to something or blocking roads maybe if the actually went after the real problem I would have more sympathy.  Unfortunately the real problems lies beyond our control (in China, India, USA etc) and like to virtue-signal to us about how 'we' should change.

 

 

I imagine most of us on here/in the uk are in that richest 10% of the world bracket, certainly anyone who owns their own home. It might not feel like it currently, but there are a lot more poorer people in the world than here.

If we all got our emissions down to that middle 40% level, it would make a big dent in emmisions. Maybe we should stop buying unsustainable cheap products from China? And cut down on meat? And vote for people who would massively improve public transport? There is probably quite a lot the ordinary person could do.

And I'm ok with the richest 800k people causing more emmisions. Sports people, musicians etc flying around the world is ok with me. Politicians using private jets to attend climate conferences is fine too. I'd rather our elected leaders weren't spending hours of their precious time in long airport queues. 

[Archied]

5 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I imagine most of us on here/in the uk are in that richest 10% of the world bracket, certainly anyone who owns their own home. It might not feel like it currently, but there are a lot more poorer people in the world than here.

If we all got our emissions down to that middle 40% level, it would make a big dent in emmisions. Maybe we should stop buying unsustainable cheap products from China? And cut down on meat? And vote for people who would massively improve public transport? There is probably quite a lot the ordinary person could do.

And I'm ok with the richest 800k people causing more emmisions. Sports people, musicians etc flying around the world is ok with me. Politicians using private jets to attend climate conferences is fine too. I'd rather our elected leaders weren't spending hours of their precious time in long airport queues. 

Sorry ,just doesn’t work , we are either all in this together or we are not , you can’t have the ordinary mass being nailed to the cross and the rich / lucky / privileged tearing the ass out of standards they expect / preach / force others to live by , you either want to change the world and how we live or you don’t , 

[maxjam]

6 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

I imagine most of us on here/in the uk are in that richest 10% of the world bracket, certainly anyone who owns their own home. It might not feel like it currently, but there are a lot more poorer people in the world than here.

According to the BBC article I posted yesterday (from last November) the richest 1% earn over $172k and the richest 10% earn over $55k  (thats approx £143k and £45k respectively)

6 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

If we all got our emissions down to that middle 40% level, it would make a big dent in emmisions. Maybe we should stop buying unsustainable cheap products from China? And cut down on meat? And vote for people who would massively improve public transport? There is probably quite a lot the ordinary person could do.

Agree we could all probably do more - just some (a lot) more than others.

6 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

And I'm ok with the richest 800k people causing more emmisions. Sports people, musicians etc flying around the world is ok with me. Politicians using private jets to attend climate conferences is fine too. I'd rather our elected leaders weren't spending hours of their precious time in long airport queues. 

Sports events/concerts etc is part of modern life.  So are iPhones, Computers, going to the cinema/restaurant etc.  Where do we draw the line?  How many foreign holidays do people have?

You know what cuts long airport times and fuel emissions more?  Meetings on zoom.  120 private jets at COP26, you're having a laugh.  Its starting to sound a bit like the rich and famous get to carry on because they are doing it in 'our best interests' whilst the rest of us pay the taxes and make all the compromises. 

EDIT:  I'm not really wanting a Climate Change debate tbh, we'd probably agree on more stuff than not anyway.  This thread is about XR and their antics, my point has always been they are targetting the wrong people.

Edited July 21, 2022 by maxjam

[ariotofmyown]

4 hours ago, Archied said:

Sorry ,just doesn’t work , we are either all in this together or we are not , you can’t have the ordinary mass being nailed to the cross and the rich / lucky / privileged tearing the ass out of standards they expect / preach / force others to live by , you either want to change the world and how we live or you don’t , 

I'm not sure the ordinary people are being nailed to a cross, and I reckon they also want to watch sporting events where well paid sports people have taken planes. I'm also fine with elected representatives travelling on planes to try and solve big problems, like the climate.

[ariotofmyown]

3 hours ago, maxjam said:

Agree we could all probably do more - just some (a lot) more than others.

Indeed, but there are a lot more of us than them. I do feel that the elites are used as a bit of an excuse for others do nothing though. We have far more power than them if used collectively.

3 hours ago, maxjam said:

This thread is about XR and their antics, my point has always been they are targetting the wrong people.

I'm not sure who should be targetted and what we should be doing. Targetting leaders and businesses doesn't seem to do any good, we all keep voting for the same people and buying the same products.

Their tactics might be controversial, but at least they are doing something, which is more than most of us. No one seems to have any answers and the people we elect are unable to provide any.

[Archied]

5 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I'm not sure the ordinary people are being nailed to a cross, and I reckon they also want to watch sporting events where well paid sports people have taken planes. I'm also fine with elected representatives travelling on planes to try and solve big problems, like the climate.

We certainly are being nailed to a cross more and more financially and our ability to travel and no I don’t agree that certain areas ,events and people stay the same whilst the ordinary folk are limited , you might be happy to have a world where there’s one rule for the lucky few and another for the plebs and that’s your choice but I’m not onboard with that ,

seem to remember ( may be wrong ) that you are one that bangs on about working from home and such things as zoom meetings being great and more productive yet seem ok with all these clowns turning up at places all over the world in multitude s of private jets spewing out needless carbon,, by that logic then everybody needs to be getting in they’re cars and on trains and getting they’re backsides back to work properly,

await the swerve excuses for double standards ,,, if the view is we ALL need to change the way we live and stop all needless pollution then let’s have the debate if it leaves a better world for our children but I’m not interested in half baked schemes to make the world better for some and worse for the majority 

[Archied]

16 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Indeed, but there are a lot more of us than them. I do feel that the elites are used as a bit of an excuse for others do nothing though. We have far more power than them if used collectively.

I'm not sure who should be targetted and what we should be doing. Targetting leaders and businesses doesn't seem to do any good, we all keep voting for the same people and buying the same products.

Their tactics might be controversial, but at least they are doing something, which is more than most of us. No one seems to have any answers and the people we elect are unable to provide any.

Interesting use of we and them , do I take it your closet xr?

[maxjam]

33 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Indeed, but there are a lot more of us than them. I do feel that the elites are used as a bit of an excuse for others do nothing though. We have far more power than them if used collectively.

I posted an image on the previous page that shows the amount of CO2 the various income group demographics emit.  The middle 40% and bottom 50% virtually cancel each other out.  Thats not to say the middle 40% couldn't shave a bit off here and there - but surely as we all become more aware of climate change a lot of us are making what changes we can, if we can afford to. 

Its the rich that can easily afford to make the most substantial and immediate cutbacks,  it seems to me that a lot of them just want to fly around the world in their private jets virtue-signalling to the rest of us about how we should change our lives.

 

33 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I'm not sure who should be targetted and what we should be doing. Targetting leaders and businesses doesn't seem to do any good, we all keep voting for the same people and buying the same products.

Their tactics might be controversial, but at least they are doing something, which is more than most of us. No one seems to have any answers and the people we elect are unable to provide any.

TBH I think a lot of it is beyond anyones control now.  Unless we all want a significant reduction in lifestyle, reclaiming carbon from the atmosphere is probably a better option than not producing as much.   Hopefully some bright spark will invent a solution and get mega rich off the back of it ?

As for politics, the major parties are all part of the same machine funded by corporations.  Pick party A or pick party B, they both smile at you whilst stabbing you in the back.  And now we seem to have the WEF pulling strings around the world.  I've lost what little faith and interest I had in politics.  It really does need tearing down and starting again.  Maybe as people slowly wake up to how they are being controlled - Canada protests,  Dutch protests,  Sri Lanka,  etc that may happen. 

Smashing the odd window or gluing yourself to a road ain't helping though and punishes the wrong people.

[Ram-Alf]

28 minutes ago, Archied said:

 

await the swerve excuses for double standards ,,, if the view is we ALL need to change the way we live and stop all needless pollution then let’s have the debate if it leaves a better world for our children but I’m not interested in half baked schemes to make the world better for some and worse for the majority 

Do you remember when buying British it meant something, Then it went tits up, Our Unions became powerful and wanted better pay for the workers, China and India and more started to get in on the act and realised their workforce will work longer hours for a lot less money and produce similar/better products for less, British industry then goes in decline, India and China steam ahead.

Apathy is now ingrained in the British people...not all but a lot, They/we want a better life today and let those who come tomorrow to sort this sh it show out, Sorry but the western peoples have it good at the expense of eastern countries, The War in Ukraine is having an effect of sorts...maybe for the better with Russian gas that could be cut off in the winter to the EU.

Until countries who have over a billion citizens each that need feeding and work say to them...sorry but we have to look to the future and you're not in the mix then global warming will continue...and I fear will have consequences that far out weigh what's happening in Ukraine, Take a look what's happening with Taiwan and China.

[Archied]

16 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I posted an image on the previous page that shows the amount of CO2 the various income group demographics emit.  The middle 40% and bottom 50% virtually cancel each other out.  Thats not to say the middle 40% couldn't shave a bit off here and there - but surely as we all become more aware of climate change a lot of us are making what changes we can, if we can afford to. 

Its the rich that can easily afford to make the most substantial and immediate cutbacks,  it seems to me that a lot of them just want to fly around the world in their private jets virtue-signalling to the rest of us about how we should change our lives.

 

TBH I think a lot of it is beyond anyones control now.  Unless we all want a significant reduction in lifestyle, reclaiming carbon from the atmosphere is probably a better option than not producing as much.   Hopefully some bright spark will invent a solution and get mega rich off the back of it ?

As for politics, the major parties are all part of the same machine funded by corporations.  Pick party A or pick party B, they both smile at you whilst stabbing you in the back.  And now we seem to have the WEF pulling strings around the world.  I've lost what little faith and interest I had in politics.  It really does need tearing down and starting again.  Maybe as people slowly wake up to how they are being controlled - Canada protests,  Dutch protests,  Sri Lanka,  etc that may happen. 

Smashing the odd window or gluing yourself to a road ain't helping though and punishes the wrong people.

Hypocrisy is the number 1 scourge of our world today and it runs through every issue , there’s even the new buzz phrase whataboutery that’s been created and used as a shield to hide behind when the glaring double standards are pointed out with such ease , god save us all from the extremists who dictate to us whilst never looking in the mirror or wondering what it is in them that makes them so so right 

[Comrade 86]

2 minutes ago, Archied said:

Hypocrisy is the number 1 scourge of our world today and it runs through every issue , there’s even the new buzz phrase whataboutery that’s been created and used as a shield to hide behind when the glaring double standards are pointed out with such ease , god save us all from the extremists who dictate to us whilst never looking in the mirror or wondering what it is in them that makes them so so right 

Need a hug?

[Archied]

4 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Do you remember when buying British it meant something, Then it went tits up, Our Unions became powerful and wanted better pay for the workers, China and India and more started to get in on the act and realised their workforce will work longer hours for a lot less money and produce similar/better products for less, British industry then goes in decline, India and China steam ahead.

Apathy is now ingrained in the British people...not all but a lot, They/we want a better life today and let those who come tomorrow to sort this sh it show out, Sorry but the western peoples have it good at the expense of eastern countries, The War in Ukraine is having an effect of sorts...maybe for the better with Russian gas that could be cut off in the winter to the EU.

Until countries who have over a billion citizens each that need feeding and work say to them...sorry but we have to look to the future and you're not in the mix then global warming will continue...and I fear will have consequences that far out weigh what's happening in Ukraine, Take a look what's happening with Taiwan and China.

Yep we produce next to nothing nowadays but consume more , made and shipped to us at much more pollution rates and we have swathes of workers / jobs that produce nothing preaching carbon zero for our little country ,closing they’re eyes and patting themselves on the back for how wonderful they are ?????

[Archied]

1 minute ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Need a hug?

Sometimes yes ?

[ariotofmyown]

57 minutes ago, Archied said:

We certainly are being nailed to a cross more and more financially and our ability to travel and no I don’t agree that certain areas ,events and people stay the same whilst the ordinary folk are limited , you might be happy to have a world where there’s one rule for the lucky few and another for the plebs and that’s your choice but I’m not onboard with that ,

seem to remember ( may be wrong ) that you are one that bangs on about working from home and such things as zoom meetings being great and more productive yet seem ok with all these clowns turning up at places all over the world in multitude s of private jets spewing out needless carbon,, by that logic then everybody needs to be getting in they’re cars and on trains and getting they’re backsides back to work properly,

await the swerve excuses for double standards ,,, if the view is we ALL need to change the way we live and stop all needless pollution then let’s have the debate if it leaves a better world for our children but I’m not interested in half baked schemes to make the world better for some and worse for the majority 

Ok, see how far you get with your idea of cancelling world cups, olympics, musicicans touring round the world etc. Can't have one rule for those people, and another for the rest of us!

Loads of things are fine on zoom and working from home. Trying to get international consenous on how to fix our climate problems sounds like the sort of thing better to do in person. I can accept that a bit extra carbon will be released by world leaders getting together to help protect our future.

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

Interesting use of we and them , do I take it your closet xr?

Only if you think 2+2=497. That comment does put much of what you post into context though.

[ariotofmyown]

49 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I posted an image on the previous page that shows the amount of CO2 the various income group demographics emit.  The middle 40% and bottom 50% virtually cancel each other out.  Thats not to say the middle 40% couldn't shave a bit off here and there - but surely as we all become more aware of climate change a lot of us are making what changes we can, if we can afford to. 

Its the rich that can easily afford to make the most substantial and immediate cutbacks,  it seems to me that a lot of them just want to fly around the world in their private jets virtue-signalling to the rest of us about how we should change our lives.

Yeah, agree with most of that. I just think worrying about a few mega rich elites virture signalling misses the point that on a global scale, most of us in the uk are relatively rich.

I did a few maths from that BBC chart, and whilst the top 1% contribute a whopping 18% of emmisions, the top 2 to 9% produce 33%. 

If you were living in Bangladesh and watching the rising tides, you probably wouldn't distiguish between a celebrity flying around in a private jet, or a british homewner being crucified by a small amount of their total tax going to green inititavies. 

I think XR are targeting the right people. It's just easy for us to say our votes and spending power mean nothing and it's all the elite's fault. Most if whom we've put in power by electing them and buying their products.

[maxjam]

25 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Yeah, agree with most of that. I just think worrying about a few mega rich elites virture signalling misses the point that on a global scale, most of us in the uk are relatively rich.

I did a few maths from that BBC chart, and whilst the top 1% contribute a whopping 18% of emmisions, the top 2 to 9% produce 33%. 

If you were living in Bangladesh and watching the rising tides, you probably wouldn't distiguish between a celebrity flying around in a private jet, or a british homewner being crucified by a small amount of their total tax going to green inititavies. 

I think XR are targeting the right people. It's just easy for us to say our votes and spending power mean nothing and it's all the elite's fault. Most if whom we've put in power by electing them and buying their products.

If you're earning over £45k, in theory you are probably taking a foreign holiday or two per year living in a nice house and can likely pay more than the £150 green tax.  The average wage in the UK is around £30k however - which obviously means a lot of people earn far less than that;

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/averageweeklyearningsingreatbritain/latest

Admittedly £30k is probably far better than most in Bangladesh, but its not a lot in the grand scheme of things in the UK especially with the rise in cost of living on top of the regular outgoings we all have. 

If for example people are struggling to find a few extra quid for petrol where do they get the extra for an electric car?  And thats not to mention the environmental cost of producing them, additional burden on the electric grid and general lack of infrastructure in the UK to support electric cars en masse. 

IMHO the average Joe living pay cheque to pay cheque can only do so much and are the ones most likely to be effected by XR blocking roads etc. 

Regardless of individual circumstances however, the UK has cut its CO2 footprint in recent times and has committed to net zero by 2050.  Despite that our total CO2 emission savings will be dwarfed by the sheer amount of new coal power stations due to be built elsewhere in the world.  I'm really not sure what XR are hoping to achieve protesting here, unless they want us to invade China/India etc and prevent them from industrializing.