Gotta love Extinction Rebellion

[Archied]

1 minute ago, Highgate said:

Switching from live animal meat to lab/warehouse grown meat may help reduce emissions and help biodiversity.  Growing meat in the lab, which apparently is getting more feasible and cost effective all the time can hugely reduce our CO2e emissions as well as our water consumption.  And think of all the land that would then be free to turn back in native forest or whatever landscape is desirable.  It could have a huge positive effect for biodiversity, which as you rightly point out, is currently severely impoverished. Those re-wilded native forests would then draw CO2 out of the atmosphere as they grow yielding yet another long term benefit.

It would also be nice to not have the mass slaughter of domesticated animals on our conscience anymore. 

Yep as I said earlier ,, let’s duck up the food chain next 

[Archied]

15 minutes ago, Highgate said:

I take it from your post that you are still somewhat of a climate skeptic.  I wonder how long it will be and what it will take before you are convinced. 

There is good news regarding the barrier reef, but it's still very susceptible to bleaching events and will continue to be. The current coral cover recovery seems to be driven by dramatic growth in a couple of hardy species, although overall species diversity seems to be down considerably. 

Acid Rain has ceased to be a major problem in Europe and North America since effective emission regulations were introduced by governments, drastically reducing sulphur dioxide emissions from industry.  In fact Acid Rain, along with the hole in the Ozone layer,  is an example of how effective Government Regulation can be in the face of serious environmental problems. 

Ice Ages are predominantly determined (at least they were before we started messing with our atmosphere) by the interplay between variations in our orbital cycle and our changing planetary orientation with respect to the Sun as well as other factors such as landmass distribution.  They are difficult to predict but they would happen naturally without any interference from us.

Yes, life is often hard. I don't see why that realization should make us determined to make life even harder for our future generations, when there are still so many things we can do the alleviate the worst.

There does seem to a contradiction in your insistence for a study into the impact of switching all combustion engines to EVs (which is a good idea), and what must be your dismissal of all the thousands of reports detailing the inevitability and the environmental impacts of climate change if we don't change course dramatically. EV's which in 10 years time will probably be using superior solid state rather than lithium batteries, will obviously get their power from extra electricity generation, hopefully most of which of will be renewable.  Nobody is suggesting that the fossil fuel plants can be switched off right now, but it needs to happen as rapidly as is feasible.  The change over will be expensive but the benefits won't be only climate related.  The post fossil fuel future is a better place, not only for our climate, but also the reduction in particulate air pollution will have a huge benefit on global health.  And won't it be nice not to have to worry about what the Saudis and Putin are charging for oil and gas?

Not sceptical of climate change , just sceptical of the major causes of it and there are plenty of experts who are too, but hey let’s not let a good money spinner go to waste

[Highgate]

40 minutes ago, Archied said:

Not sceptical of climate change , just sceptical of the major causes of it and there are plenty of experts who are too, but hey let’s not let a good money spinner go to waste

That sounds like classic climate skepticism to me.  Or at least skepticism regarding human induced climate change.  Obviously there is nobody who debates that the climate can't change of it's own accord.

The basic scientific concept is very straight forward.  Our atmosphere including the greenhouse gases let the visible light pass through it from the Sun. These warm the Earth, which then re-radiates the energy back out, but at longer infrared wavelengths.  The GHGs absorb some of this infrared energy in and trap it in our atmosphere, resulting in the atmosphere being warmer than it otherwise would be. The more GHGs in the atmosphere the greater the effect.  As we dump more GHGs into the atmosphere this heating effect will increase. There is simply no way around this fact. 

How precisely this warming will effect our climate is more difficult to predict as the interactions between the atmosphere, our oceans and the biosphere are complex. But the climate models are largely in agreement now and the fact we will see considerable warming in the coming decades is no longer in doubt. 

Incidentally, according to the Met Office, the summer of 2021 was the 9th hottest on record in the UK and not the coldest on record.

Edited August 11, 2022 by Highgate

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

oh yes I fear for our children and the miserable soulless existence headed they’re way

The kids are coming round to yours for dinner again at the weekend? ?

[Archied]

2 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

The kids are coming round to yours for dinner again at the weekend? ?

You could come round?

[Archied]

48 minutes ago, Highgate said:

That sounds like classic climate skepticism to me.  Or at least skepticism regarding human induced climate change.  Obviously there is nobody who debates that the climate can't change of it's own accord.

The basic scientific concept is very straight forward.  Our atmosphere including the greenhouse gases let the visible light pass through it from the Sun. These warm the Earth, which then re-radiates the energy back out, but at longer infrared wavelengths.  The GHGs absorb some of this infrared energy in and trap it in our atmosphere, resulting in the atmosphere being warmer than it otherwise would be. The more GHGs in the atmosphere the greater the effect.  As we dump more GHGs into the atmosphere this heating effect will increase. There is simply no way around this fact. 

How precisely this warming will effect our climate is more difficult to predict as the interactions between the atmosphere, our oceans and the biosphere are complex. But the climate models are largely in agreement now and the fact we will see considerable warming in the coming decades is no longer in doubt. 

Incidentally, according to the Met Office, the summer of 2021 was the 9th hottest on record in the UK and not the coldest on record.

In your opinion, plenty more qualified than you or I disagree with you

[maxjam]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

oh yes I fear for our children and the miserable soulless existence headed they’re way 

My condolences to you and your wife.  It must have been a shock when they came out as Notts Forest fans ? 

[Highgate]

3 hours ago, Archied said:

In your opinion, plenty more qualified than you or I disagree with you

The description I gave you of how the Greenhouse Effect operates isn't really up for debate.  That's basic level school physics, easily demonstrable by any science teacher.  It's the very effect that allows our planet to be habitable in the first place, raising the average  temperature by around 30 C.  It's effectively the Earth's thermostat...what do we think will happen when we turn the dial up by adding more GHGs? 

[Archied]

7 hours ago, Highgate said:

The description I gave you of how the Greenhouse Effect operates isn't really up for debate.  That's basic level school physics, easily demonstrable by any science teacher.  It's the very effect that allows our planet to be habitable in the first place, raising the average  temperature by around 30 C.  It's effectively the Earth's thermostat...what do we think will happen when we turn the dial up by adding more GHGs? 

There in lies the problem ,, science teachers and they’re ilk believing and telling everyone they’re view isn’t up for debate , the the amount we are contributing to climate change is very much up for debate unless your a fully paid up sit in the road , 5 minutes from the worlds end merchant 

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by Archied

[Stive Pesley]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

There in lies the problem ,, science teachers and they’re ilk believing and telling everyone they’re view isn’t up for debate

LOL. It's not "their view" - it's "scientifically proven facts"

Maybe we should let Science Teachers teach kids about gravity by encouraging them to jump off tall buildings to see if what the science teacher has told them is true or not. After all - it's more important that we teach our kids to "question everything" than it is to let these woke science teachers brainwash future generations 

[Archied]

12 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

LOL. It's not "their view" - it's "scientifically proven facts"

Maybe we should let Science Teachers teach kids about gravity by encouraging them to jump off tall buildings to see if what the science teacher has told them is true or not. After all - it's more important that we teach our kids to "question everything" than it is to let these woke science teachers brainwash future generations 

But that’s already happening, teachers pushing they’re ideology and politics on kids , mind you not at the moment as it’s school hols and most will be out sitting blocking roads ( once they fly back from they’re holidays)

[Wolfie]

16 minutes ago, Archied said:

But that’s already happening, teachers pushing they’re ideology and politics on kids , mind you not at the moment as it’s school hols and most will be out sitting blocking roads ( once they fly back from they’re holidays)

Not sure that's a new thing. In the mid 80's there were a couple of infamous rabid lefties at my comprehensive school, who regularly used to openly preach in classes.

Everyone is influenced by their own beliefs and baises of course in their dealings with others and not even teachers are immune to that. They wouldn't be able to do it so openly nowadays though.

[Highgate]

6 hours ago, Archied said:

There in lies the problem ,, science teachers and they’re ilk believing and telling everyone they’re view isn’t up for debate , the the amount we are contributing to climate change is very much up for debate unless your a fully paid up sit in the road , 5 minutes from the worlds end merchant 

 

It's the mechanics of the Greenhouse Effect that I'm saying isn't really up for debate anymore. It's been observed and demonstrated over and over again. Of course it's science and every theory is subject to updating if new data comes in...but there are many things, I think it's fair to say that we can be pretty confident about. 

So we know about the Greenhouse Effect and given that we also know that we having been gradually increasing the atmospheric concentration of CO2e since the industrial revolution (I assume you'll accept this point...or do you consider it also up for debate?) These two points taken together where do you think they will lead logically? And if you don't think they will result in the planet warming....how come?

Incidentally I am curious as to just what level of evidence you require to start believing that human driven Global Warming is real?

[BaaLocks]

21 hours ago, Highgate said:

Switching from live animal meat to lab/warehouse grown meat may help reduce emissions and help biodiversity.  Growing meat in the lab, which apparently is getting more feasible and cost effective all the time can hugely reduce our CO2e emissions as well as our water consumption.  And think of all the land that would then be free to turn back in native forest or whatever landscape is desirable.  It could have a huge positive effect for biodiversity, which as you rightly point out, is currently severely impoverished. Those re-wilded native forests would then draw CO2 out of the atmosphere as they grow yielding yet another long term benefit.

It would also be nice to not have the mass slaughter of domesticated animals on our conscience anymore. 

Interesting to consider though, isn't it? A few years back the suggestion was that we would move to eating insects - low in cholesterol, high in protein, cheap to produce, almost zero CO2.

What I would say is that there have been very few examples in history where we have willingly deprived humanity for the benefit of humanity (slavery is probably the only example I can think of). In all others we have to invent our way out of it and that will have to be the case here (one could even argue that the invention of engines made large elements of slavery redundant).

Engines that are more efficient, less reliant on fossil fuels etc are going to have to be the answer. Only new technology will save us, just banning things won't.

[Ram-Alf]

Not in my life time, Maybe no even my Grandchildren...but, The explosion of the Worlds population will have a detrimental effect, Water and food stuffs shortages, War, Pestilence, Disease, Covid a great example of what happens after Covid is lived with, The demand for food, Fuel, Gas will put extreme pressure on mankind.

1956 the year I was born the Worlds population was...2,822,443,282, As of 2020...7,794,798,739, Our planet is Vast, If those we put in power can sort out their differences, Listen and take heed of those who study our Climate/Ozone Layer there's enough land for all.

But history shows us we can't live with ourselves, History has been full of Mad Men, But they never had Nuclear weapons, Today we have Mad Men that do have Nuclear weapons.

Enjoy life while you can...100 years and counting ☹️

Worlds population over the years.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-population-by-year/

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, BaaLocks said:

Interesting to consider though, isn't it? A few years back the suggestion was that we would move to eating insects - low in cholesterol, high in protein, cheap to produce, almost zero CO2.

What I would say is that there have been very few examples in history where we have willingly deprived humanity for the benefit of humanity (slavery is probably the only example I can think of). In all others we have to invent our way out of it and that will have to be the case here (one could even argue that the invention of engines made large elements of slavery redundant).

Engines that are more efficient, less reliant on fossil fuels etc are going to have to be the answer. Only new technology will save us, just banning things won't.

I couldn't agree more that technological solutions will be answer.  Thankfully, lots of progress is being made in that area.  However I fear that it is the absence of political will globally that may prove the bigger stumbling block to progress.

[Highgate]

32 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Not in my life time, Maybe no even my Grandchildren...but, The explosion of the Worlds population will have a detrimental effect, Water and food stuffs shortages, War, Pestilence, Disease, Covid a great example of what happens after Covid is lived with, The demand for food, Fuel, Gas will put extreme pressure on mankind.

1956 the year I was born the Worlds population was...2,822,443,282, As of 2020...7,794,798,739, Our planet is Vast, If those we put in power can sort out their differences, Listen and take heed of those who study our Climate/Ozone Layer there's enough land for all.

But history shows us we can't live with ourselves, History has been full of Mad Men, But they never had Nuclear weapons, Today we have Mad Men that do have Nuclear weapons.

Enjoy life while you can...100 years and counting ☹️

Worlds population over the years.

https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/world-population-by-year/

Population is predicted to peak at a little less than 11,000,000,000 before the end of the century before it starts to fall again. 

Nearly 11 billion will put huge strain on our resources, given how wasteful we are at present....but it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that we can cope with it.  We will have to be more efficient of course. 

[Archied]

17 hours ago, Highgate said:

It's the mechanics of the Greenhouse Effect that I'm saying isn't really up for debate anymore. It's been observed and demonstrated over and over again. Of course it's science and every theory is subject to updating if new data comes in...but there are many things, I think it's fair to say that we can be pretty confident about. 

So we know about the Greenhouse Effect and given that we also know that we having been gradually increasing the atmospheric concentration of CO2e since the industrial revolution (I assume you'll accept this point...or do you consider it also up for debate?) These two points taken together where do you think they will lead logically? And if you don't think they will result in the planet warming....how come?

Incidentally I am curious as to just what level of evidence you require to start believing that human driven Global Warming is real?

The question is more what evidence I require to reach the level of hysteria and stupidity of the people this topic is about ,

of course I believe we contribute to a degree ( to what level debatable) because every action has a reaction , where you and these loons lose me is exactly that every action has a reaction, swathes of trees cut down in Scotland for wind farms where the tariff for energy is set by the cost of fossil fuel even though wind farms are producing cheaper energy ( profit or green motivation?) 

headlong rush to electric cars which I’m sure will have massive problems a few years down the line including take make throw away issues let alone the fact we are nowhere near having the reliable power power producing sources to power them all along with the power we already need to produce now , the infrastructure? The prohibitive cost to ordinary people who will be taxed back onto buses and trains that are quite frankly useless and vastly expensive ,

I could go on and on but what’s the point , you see one thing ,motive for the greater,, I see another MORE greed and profit and more push down for the ordinary masses ,

prentending to be carbon neutral by buying from other countries is a farce on the scale of Maggie selling companies to us that we already owned and silly people happy to buy shares for a relatively tiny quick profit,

so as stated over and over again , if and when there are properly costed plans in terms of cost , impact on lives and the environment motivated for the greater good then I’m happy to be on board but at this point I am passionately against thes ext rebellion loon types without a thought in they’re heads beyond they’re current pet drum to bang

[Stive Pesley]

Enjoy your blissful and wilful ignorance while you can. Things are moving fast now

https://link.medium.com/8kinyHJcssb

 

[Boycie]

29 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

Enjoy your blissful and wilful ignorance while you can. Things are moving fast now

https://link.medium.com/8kinyHJcssb

 

I remember when Matlock flooded, there’s a sign by the river bridge on the park that marks its height.  Touch wood it’s never been nowhere near that height since.

Also in the fifty’s there was mass flooding in Ingoldmills, claimed nearly 50 lives after a sea surge.   Then I recently visited the town of Lynmouth, similar death toll.

Would these events in the 50’s and 60’s be down to climate change?

The last prolonged heat wave I remember was in 1976.  I wonder if the result of hotter weather is down to the fact that after we banned cfc’s etc our air is clearer and more heat is getting though?

I’m sure I’ll try to be cancelled and bombarded with info to support the other views but this is the way I see it..

Nobodies completed a full term existence on this planet from creation to extinction.  Nobody knows if this is just the way the world will go.  Who can say that all these actions will preserve the planet? They can assume, but we all know to assume makes an ass out of you and me.

Stop stressing about things so much, we were never here for ever.  We could be wiped out by a meteor next week and no matter how many cows you get to stop farting won’t help I’m afraid.

Then there’s Putin riding his nuke into oblivion.

Do your bit if you want, if it make you feel better, but forcing you views onto others is a bit tiresome.

Believe in what you believe in, do what you think is right.  We’ll still all end up the same way in the end. 
 

Only the Rams and Bucko will live forever.