83 million in debt

[jimtastic56]

We know Mel is a very good businessman, so I wonder how the income from off field activities compares with DCFC and other teams during his tenure? I have always noticed that other teams seem to sell a lot more shirts than we do.

[Rev]

34 minutes ago, angieram said:

I don't think the season ticket money is gone; it's in a ring-fenced account.

Wouldn't the majority of it be in last year's figures though, not this year's?

 

[angieram]

3 minutes ago, Rev said:

Wouldn't the majority of it be in last year's figures though, not this year's?

 

I don't know but there is large sum in the account classified as season ticket sales that has been "realised as assets" since September 21. It's about £991,000 in two months. 

I took this to mean the money had been ring-fenced somewhere since being paid by us, and is being released now we are attending matches.

Maybe someone who is an accountant can clarify?

[Rev]

29 minutes ago, angieram said:

I don't know but there is large sum in the account classified as season ticket sales that has been "realised as assets" since September 21. It's about £991,000 in two months. 

I took this to mean the money had been ring-fenced somewhere since being paid by us, and is being released now we are attending matches.

Maybe someone who is an accountant can clarify?

We maybe have crossed wires on this, I'm not sure.

Season ticket sales for this season started in August, and were valid from the Stoke game on the 19th September. 

£990k divided by an average of £300 a ticket would see 3,300 new season ticket holders, which would seem reasonable in two months.

The other season ticket holders for this season would have paid the year previously, and left their cash in the club, leaving no new revenue this season once they were given free season tickets this year.

What I'm trying clumsily to say, is that in a normal year, our losses right now wouldn't be 600k a month on current expenditure, because we don't have the season ticket money we normally would have because we had it last year.

I'm not even sure that makes sense myself, reading it back?

 

 

 

[uttoxram75]

On 23/11/2021 at 17:13, Mucker1884 said:

No offence meant, buddy, but are you absolutely sure it was 7b, and not 7d?   

 

 

 

 

 

*The really, really old folk on here will probably wee themselves with joyous memories, after reading that!  ?

I'm not taking any notice of your two bob jokes.

[Ghost of Clough]

This is just cash flow though. The big money from sponsors, EFL/FA, etc typically comes at the end and beginning of the season. The bit in the middle is mostly just matchday and hospitality.

Until we see figures for the whole season, I wouldn't be too rash to make a judgement. Even if I am wrong, it's only £7.2m over 12 months.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Ghost of Clough

[Crewton]

8 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

This is just cash flow though. The big money from sponsors, EFL/FA, etc typically comes at the end and beginning of the season. The bit in the middle is mostly just matchday and hospitality.

Until we see figures for the whole season, I wouldn't be too rash to make a judgement. Even if I am wrong, it's only £7.2m over 12 months.

Yup. My take was that journos have picked out figures from the current trading scenario and, once you strip out the one-off costs associated with administration the underlying cost base isn't anything like as dramatic a problem. 

[Hanny]

Did I read that statement correctly- it states 83/84M in liabilities (not debt). While debt is a subset of liabilities, they generally do not imply the same thing.

example: a loan is a debt. To be paid by a certain term/amount. 

example: an asset not yet paid off falls under liability.

Your car/house are liabilities…but still have value. The loan to buy those things are a debt. 

In other words, it’s possible they are lumping every potential pound owed (future wages, bank loans, maintenance costs, etc.) and placing that total sum at 84M. 

if that’s the case, this number doesn’t seem as dire, as it likely has a large chunk of simple operating costs lumped in.  

Of course, I could be quite wrong ?‍♂️?

[PistoldPete]

7 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

This is just cash flow though. The big money from sponsors, EFL/FA, etc typically comes at the end and beginning of the season. The bit in the middle is mostly just matchday and hospitality.

Until we see figures for the whole season, I wouldn't be too rash to make a judgement. Even if I am wrong, it's only £7.2m over 12 months.

That’s what I thought too GoC. The BBC reporting on our problems has been consistently rubbish. 
 

mind you , cash flow is important too we don’t want to run out of cash.

[GenBr]

9 hours ago, jimtastic56 said:

We know Mel is a very good businessman, so I wonder how the income from off field activities compares with DCFC and other teams during his tenure? I have always noticed that other teams seem to sell a lot more shirts than we do.

In a couple of years of mels tenure we set efl records for revenue (excludes parachute teams). He did actually do a good job with bringing money in to the club. Its the money going out that was the problem

[Ghost of Clough]

3 hours ago, Hanny said:

Did I read that statement correctly- it states 83/84M in liabilities (not debt). While debt is a subset of liabilities, they generally do not imply the same thing.

example: a loan is a debt. To be paid by a certain term/amount. 

example: an asset not yet paid off falls under liability.

Your car/house are liabilities…but still have value. The loan to buy those things are a debt. 

In other words, it’s possible they are lumping every potential pound owed (future wages, bank loans, maintenance costs, etc.) and placing that total sum at 84M. 

if that’s the case, this number doesn’t seem as dire, as it likely has a large chunk of simple operating costs lumped in.  

Of course, I could be quite wrong ?‍♂️?

Well it includes the £8m or so owed in transfer fees  the majority (if not all) for Jozwiak and Bielik. You're half right  but doesn't include stuff like wages, maintenance etc

As for what we actually owe right now, I only recall £26.5m to HMRC, £4m to minor creditors, £20m MSD loan.

[angieram]

8 hours ago, Rev said:

We maybe have crossed wires on this, I'm not sure.

Season ticket sales for this season started in August, and were valid from the Stoke game on the 19th September. 

£990k divided by an average of £300 a ticket would see 3,300 new season ticket holders, which would seem reasonable in two months.

The other season ticket holders for this season would have paid the year previously, and left their cash in the club, leaving no new revenue this season once they were given free season tickets this year.

What I'm trying clumsily to say, is that in a normal year, our losses right now wouldn't be 600k a month on current expenditure, because we don't have the season ticket money we normally would have because we had it last year.

I'm not even sure that makes sense myself, reading it back?

 

 

 

Yes, it does make sense, I think. That they will have already released my season ticket money last year, and therefore can't do it again as they've already spent it? 

I hadn't thought of it that way, you're right.

Perhaps we can all offer to buy next year's season tickets early. Although what will we have to spend next year, then? 

Who'd want to run a football club? ! ?

[sage]

6 minutes ago, angieram said:

Yes, it does make sense, I think. That they will have already released my season ticket money last year, and therefore can't do it again as they've already spent it? 

I hadn't thought of it that way, you're right.

Perhaps we can all offer to buy next year's season tickets early. Although what will we have to spend next year, then? 

Who'd want to run a football club? ! ?

This was my thought if we needed money to eak through to the end of the season. Its a bit like taking a pay day loan though. 

[Oldben]

Is 20 year old Pride Park fair value at an estimated cost of 50 million, and that wouldn't include the training ground which I understand isn't owned by Mm.

In comparison, Chestfield built a new 10500 seater stadium in 2019 for 13 million.

So an estimate of say 40 million to build a 30000 seater stadium? If that was an option.

Equally, if an option Derby could build a 20000 seater stadium for a lot less.

I read that mm is owed 125 million, Maguire says who would by the club in League One with 56 million owed to creditors, plus 125 million owed to mm, even if mm accepted 25% of that plus the 50 million for the ground.

Could Derby potentially rent a ground share with Notts county. Notts is 20000 seats.

If in league one, would Derby get 25000 plus crowds every week.

Renting Notts County ground would be cheaper than buying back the ground.

Not that happy to consider paying mm millions after what's happened to the club.

 

[PistoldPete]

18 minutes ago, Oldben said:

Is 20 year old Pride Park fair value at an estimated cost of 50 million, and that wouldn't include the training ground which I understand isn't owned by Mm.

In comparison, Chestfield built a new 10500 seater stadium in 2019 for 13 million.

So an estimate of say 40 million to build a 30000 seater stadium? If that was an option.

Equally, if an option Derby could build a 20000 seater stadium for a lot less.

I read that mm is owed 125 million, Maguire says who would by the club in League One with 56 million owed to creditors, plus 125 million owed to mm, even if mm accepted 25% of that plus the 50 million for the ground.

Could Derby potentially rent a ground share with Notts county. Notts is 20000 seats.

If in league one, would Derby get 25000 plus crowds every week.

Renting Notts County ground would be cheaper than buying back the ground.

Not that happy to consider paying mm millions after what's happened to the club.

 

The cost of rebuilding PPS to the same spec would be over £100 million. Chesterfield is not remotely a comparison, their stadium isn't even fully formed and is not built to the same spec and only a third of the capacity.

I don't know what the deal is with PPS , but the admin team regard it as selling point to potential buyers, so something that would help the sale of the club , not hinder it.  The club is not buying it anyway, it's the potential buyers who would pay for it.   

Maguire is right to point out that loans from Mel amount to £125 million..but I think he sensationalises the issue.   everyone on here believes him when he says he will write these off. However it does seem odd that people on here are so keen to pile in and give him a kicking when we are dependent on him to write off £25 million he could quite rightfully claim.  

 

 

[ThePrisoner]

35 minutes ago, Oldben said:

Is 20 year old Pride Park fair value at an estimated cost of 50 million, and that wouldn't include the training ground which I understand isn't owned by Mm.

In comparison, Chestfield built a new 10500 seater stadium in 2019 for 13 million.

So an estimate of say 40 million to build a 30000 seater stadium? If that was an option.

Equally, if an option Derby could build a 20000 seater stadium for a lot less.

I read that mm is owed 125 million, Maguire says who would by the club in League One with 56 million owed to creditors, plus 125 million owed to mm, even if mm accepted 25% of that plus the 50 million for the ground.

Could Derby potentially rent a ground share with Notts county. Notts is 20000 seats.

If in league one, would Derby get 25000 plus crowds every week.

Renting Notts County ground would be cheaper than buying back the ground.

Not that happy to consider paying mm millions after what's happened to the club.

 

The administrators have said several times the ground is included in the sale of the club. Also Mel is probably not going to get a penny. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by ThePrisoner

[PistoldPete]

39 minutes ago, sage said:

This was my thought if we needed money to eak through to the end of the season. Its a bit like taking a pay day loan though. 

It wouldn't be a good look to ask for money for next season, if we went bust and next season didn't happen. Actually very bad indeed. 

[kevinhectoring]

34 minutes ago, Oldben said:

Not that happy to consider paying mm millions after what's happened to the club.

I think the money that the buyer pays for the club and the stadium will go to creditors and HMRC and admin costs. Don’t think any will go to MM    Might be different if they just leave the stadium lease in place but still I doubt MM will get a penny 

[sage]

32 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

It wouldn't be a good look to ask for money for next season, if we went bust and next season didn't happen. Actually very bad indeed. 

It would be the last resort. It would be to stop us going bust. Is liquidation a better look? 

[Maharan]

23 minutes ago, sage said:

It would be the last resort. It would be to stop us going bust. Is liquidation a better look? 

But if the threat of liquidation raises its ugly head again, who in their right mind would buy a season ticket for the following year?