Reasons why it has gone wrong.

[Angry Ram]

1 minute ago, ariotofmyown said:

It's hard to know who should be in charge. The opposite of a fan making poor emotional decisions in charge could be invest nothing, strip assets and pocket the gate receipts of the 10k still showing up to support us in league 2.

It’s a lottery I admit, just like any manager appointment.. Take Jack Walker for example the epitome of a fan and a successful owner. He invested and was successful but a different beast from Morris. Everything he has said and done has been a red flag and any other owner would have been hounded out of dodge but people had blinkers on with Mel.. It’s been one big vanity project.

[May Contain Nuts]

18 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Nice to see that people aren't being stereotyped on here

 

8 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

If you choose to pigeonhole people then I guess it does yes. 

People can choose, via their own actions and words, whether they define the stereotype or whether they defy it.

If people don't want to be stereotyped, they shouldn't make stereotypical comments.

If people don't want to be pigeonholed they shouldn't present themselves to all and sundry as a pigeon.

I've hit the hard stuff early today.

[Tyler Durden]

6 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Same as when he let Pearson spend money. Same as when he let Lampard spend money. Same as when he let Cocu spend money.

The risks have increased with each gamble and unfortunately, none of them have paid off. Covid then arrived at the worst time for us, the final throw of Mel's dice.

I think that's the issue though like an out of control gambler he's thrown good money after bad in the vain hope of recovering his losses. Which is not what you'd expect from a businessman in a highly responsible position at a football club. 

I don't question his motives initially when Hughes and Bryson got injured it's what happened subsequently that has quite rightly drawn huge criticism.

[Tyler Durden]

1 minute ago, Coconut said:

 

People can choose, via their own actions and words, whether they define the stereotype or whether they defy it.

If people don't want to be stereotyped, they shouldn't make stereotypical comments.

If people don't want to be pigeonholed they shouldn't present themselves to all and sundry as a pigeon.

I've hit the hard stuff early today.

That's nonsense of course so people ask to be stereotyped then in all walks of life? Prejudging someone is of course the fault of the individual not the narrow minded person making that judgement!

I thought victim blaming went out with square wheels but apparently not on here. 

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Tyler Durden said:

I don't question his motives initially when Hughes and Bryson got injured it's what happened subsequently that has quite rightly drawn huge criticism.

Except the fans weren't used to spending big at that point, the days of Barker-type fees were still fresh and extreme! It was a clue into the way things were going to go now Mel was in charge.

[ivo_knoflicek]

In answer to the OP - for me it started at Burnley in 2014 when Martin was sent off for diving when it should have been a pen. If we'd won that game I think we would have gone up automatically with Leicester. No Zamora goal, Mac having a full close season to recruit for the Prem, no game at Zenit, no Thorne injury, ....

However, what followed afterwards wasn't inevitable and it's hard to disagree with many of the posts above. That 13/14 season seems like it was 70 years ago, not 7.

[MrPlinkett]

20 minutes ago, ivo_knoflicek said:

In answer to the OP - for me it started at Burnley in 2014 when Martin was sent off for diving when it should have been a pen. If we'd won that game I think we would have gone up automatically with Leicester. No Zamora goal, Mac having a full close season to recruit for the Prem, no game at Zenit, no Thorne injury, ....

However, what followed afterwards wasn't inevitable and it's hard to disagree with many of the posts above. That 13/14 season seems like it was 70 years ago, not 7.

I sometimes look at that game. Madeley had clearly preconceptions about Martin. It wasn't a penalty though, Martin slips and doesn't even appeal,  the goal Hendrick scored should have stood. 

 

[WhiteHorseRam]

All comes down to the manager situation - continuation and stability.

Thinking back over the last few years, we never seem to have had a settled manager for a good long time .. 21st Century info below from wiki ...

if you look at the duration of our managers it's like ONE CALENDAR YEAR mostly, okay you could break it down to seasons and transfer windows etc ... but flat numbers show about one year  ..

Exceptions - Bald Eagle, Burley, Nige, Mac 1, and in my opinion we were more solid for sure under those guys. I would certainly feel better about next Saturday with one of them at the helm right now.

 

2020–present:  Wayne Rooney

2019–2020:  Phillip Cocu 

2018–2019:  Frank Lampard

2017–2018:  Gary Rowett

2016–2017:  Steve McClaren

2016:  Nigel Pearson

2016:  Darren Wassall

2015–2016:  Paul Clement

2013–2015:  Steve McClaren

2009–2013:  Nigel Clough

2007–2008:  Paul Jewell

2006–2007:  Billy Davies

2006:  Terry Westley

2005–2006:  Phil Brown

2003–2005:  George Burley 

2002–2003:  John Gregory

2001–2002:  Colin Todd

1995–2001:  Jim Smith

[AGR]

On 02/05/2021 at 07:12, NottsRammy said:

It really went wrong at the point of sacking nigel clough . We went away from the hard work ethic and buying players that had the right temperament with no money .To suddenly finding a bit if money to give to McLaren for a very short while his training and prob spotting a few tweaks and the freshness of a new manager effect got Derby playing some really good football.But let's never forget that squad was nigels and will never know how close he was to getting something from it .But as we all know traitor Steve fluttered his eyelids at newcastle , completely destroyed player moral of where all in it together , it was nothing to do with injuries at all , the bubble popped with Steve jumping ship. After this employing lampard could have been a masterstroke but like steve he made us all think he was Derby thru and thru , he brought in 3 disastrous loans,  tomori,mount,Wilson,  they were disastrous because they were basically the team and it ripped the heart out of our side when they went back and since then investment has been non existent and we have tried to get by with more celebrity managers . I mean did we learn nothing with lampard. Employing a big name either ends in disaster or if they do turn out to be good how long would we have kept hold of rooney . Let's pretend rooney is turning out to be brilliant,  how long would we keep him , where is the bloody stability ethic ! . We are down but fir gods sake pray we get Alonso and pray we get a normal grafting type manager my preference wilder or evatt......or yes the return of nigel . Rant over.

Absolute nonsense. If Clough had have been in charge for the whole of the 13/14 season we wouldn’t have even got in the play offs

[Tyler Durden]

5 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

All comes down to the manager situation - continuation and stability.

Thinking back over the last few years, we never seem to have had a settled manager for a good long time .. 21st Century info below from wiki ...

if you look at the duration of our managers it's like ONE CALENDAR YEAR mostly, okay you could break it down to seasons and transfer windows etc ... but flat numbers show about one year  ..

Exceptions - Bald Eagle, Burley, Nige, Mac 1, and in my opinion we were more solid for sure under those guys. I would certainly feel better about next Saturday with one of them at the helm right now.

 

2020–present:  Wayne Rooney

2019–2020:  Phillip Cocu 

2018–2019:  Frank Lampard

2017–2018:  Gary Rowett

2016–2017:  Steve McClaren

2016:  Nigel Pearson

2016:  Darren Wassall

2015–2016:  Paul Clement

2013–2015:  Steve McClaren

2009–2013:  Nigel Clough

2007–2008:  Paul Jewell

2006–2007:  Billy Davies

2006:  Terry Westley

2005–2006:  Phil Brown

2003–2005:  George Burley 

2002–2003:  John Gregory

2001–2002:  Colin Todd

1995–2001:  Jim Smith

Agree with you about stability but this hasn't been the be all and end all of things....the quality of the manager has been severely lacking again down to the poor judgement of the owner recently:-

Rooney - no managerial experience

Cocu - no English league managerial experience

Lampard - no managerial experience

Clement - no managerial experience

[sage]

5 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Agree with you about stability but this hasn't been the be all and end all of things....the quality of the manager has been severely lacking again down to the poor judgement of the owner recently:-

Rooney - no managerial experience

Cocu - no English league managerial experience

Lampard - no managerial experience

Clement - no managerial experience

Pearson?

Rowett?

[WhiteHorseRam]

2 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Agree with you about stability but this hasn't been the be all and end all of things....the quality of the manager has been severely lacking again down to the poor judgement of the owner recently:-

Rooney - no managerial experience

Cocu - no English league managerial experience

Lampard - no managerial experience

Clement - no managerial experience

I think the manager - being a good one and supported by the board/owners - is the be all and end all.

I watched the Jack Charlton Ireland documentary the other day - sheer force of will ( and clever use of the Grandma rule) from him made their international success happen.

Howe at Bournmouth, Dyche at Burnley etc etc etc

The manager sets the tone, the mood, the standards, picks the right players for the right job, spots players to sign, provides the right motivation - arm around the shoulder/spectacular benching/half time hair dryer treatment, judges the right time for a sub ....

[Tyler Durden]

9 minutes ago, sage said:

Pearson?

Rowett?

Thought Pearson could do a good job but obviously there wasn't room for two egos that size at the club so one obviously had to go.

Rowett was just like meh.

Of course I'd take him back like a shot now sadly. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 hour ago, Curtains said:

To be honest that’s the situation because none of us actually know what the outcome will be on or off the field .

I am saying we won’t go down because that’s what I believe or I want to believe.

There is a saying but I can’t use it as it’s not politically correct but it’s got to do with singing. 

I'm glad the positive Curtains is back. I've no idea if we will make it or not, but I will hope of course.

For me, it will be some sort of progress if I see resolve and some sort of of management clue from the gang of many. 

Leaving it all on the pitch to me does not just apply to the players. 

[RoyMac5]

27 minutes ago, sage said:

Pearson?

Rowett?

Pearson - pandering to the fans?

Rowett - Mel's choice instead of Mac2

[CornwallRam]

1 hour ago, Angry Ram said:

It’s a lottery I admit, just like any manager appointment.. Take Jack Walker for example the epitome of a fan and a successful owner. He invested and was successful but a different beast from Morris. Everything he has said and done has been a red flag and any other owner would have been hounded out of dodge but people had blinkers on with Mel.. It’s been one big vanity project.

 

The reason that things have gone so wrong is that we haven't been promoted. Each season in this division drains a club. Us and Forest have been Championship clubs for longer than any other. Thy failed FFP and had to be rescued as part of a multi-club group.

The big difference is that Jack Walker was able to build Blackburn without FFP/P&S or the parachute payment system. 

Mel's strategy was to set a consistent playing style, drive up commercial revenues and invest in and force through academy players. Those three aims are occasionally difficult to adhere to at the same time, but I would argue that Mel has actually tried to consistently stick to those plans. Most managers have been possession based - Pearson and Rowett are the obvious exceptions, but even Pearson (disastrously) had to agree to modify his own style fit in with the 'Derby Way'. Each manager has been told to use academy players. Rooney and Lampard were box office, so potentially good for revenues. The recruitment team has changed remarkably little over Mel's tenure.

I said there were flaws in that strategy right from the off - playing nice football is expensive and getting the 'right sort' of manager is restrictive. Forcing through young players also weakens the team. None of these things are necessarily terrible ideas, but my argument is that they all made Derby County slightly worse than was needed, and that may well have been the difference between promotion and not. It's such a fine margin at this level. If we'd scored first vs Reading when we needed a point to make the payoffs. If we'd signed Tammy Abraham on loan instead of buying Jack Marriott (which I was told was possible but Abraham wanted to wait to see if he could get a PL loan and we didn't want to hang around), If Rowett hadn't have got a nosebleed vs Fulham, if Fulham had let Chris Martin come back etc - such fine margins.

Mel's strategy does have some logic - it was a reaction to the unsustainability of the Championship. Make recruitment more efficient by keeping a consistent playing style. Make the playing staff cheaper by growing our own youngsters. That stuff was only necessary because the stupid effect of FFP/P&S and Parachute Payments. Without those, I believe that Mel would be our Jack Walker. Mel has failed, but he was within a whisker of success and has been our owner at a time when achieving success was stupendously difficult. 

[WhiteHorseRam]

17 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

Each season in this division drains a club

 

Hang on to your pants if we end up in League One.

 

[RoyMac5]

22 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

Mel's strategy does have some logic - it was a reaction to the unsustainability of the Championship. Make recruitment more efficient by keeping a consistent playing style. Make the playing staff cheaper by growing our own youngsters. That stuff was only necessary because the stupid effect of FFP/P&S and Parachute Payments. Without those, I believe that Mel would be our Jack Walker. Mel has failed, but he was within a whisker of success and has been our owner at a time when achieving success was stupendously difficult. 

Yes, he did that one well! FFS he might have said that was his aim, but it mostly wasn't what he did!

[May Contain Nuts]

24 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

 

The reason that things have gone so wrong is that we haven't been promoted. Each season in this division drains a club. Us and Forest have been Championship clubs for longer than any other. Thy failed FFP and had to be rescued as part of a multi-club group.

The big difference is that Jack Walker was able to build Blackburn without FFP/P&S or the parachute payment system. 

Mel's strategy was to set a consistent playing style, drive up commercial revenues and invest in and force through academy players. Those three aims are occasionally difficult to adhere to at the same time, but I would argue that Mel has actually tried to consistently stick to those plans. Most managers have been possession based - Pearson and Rowett are the obvious exceptions, but even Pearson (disastrously) had to agree to modify his own style fit in with the 'Derby Way'. Each manager has been told to use academy players. Rooney and Lampard were box office, so potentially good for revenues. The recruitment team has changed remarkably little over Mel's tenure.

I said there were flaws in that strategy right from the off - playing nice football is expensive and getting the 'right sort' of manager is restrictive. Forcing through young players also weakens the team. None of these things are necessarily terrible ideas, but my argument is that they all made Derby County slightly worse than was needed, and that may well have been the difference between promotion and not. It's such a fine margin at this level. If we'd scored first vs Reading when we needed a point to make the payoffs. If we'd signed Tammy Abraham on loan instead of buying Jack Marriott (which I was told was possible but Abraham wanted to wait to see if he could get a PL loan and we didn't want to hang around), If Rowett hadn't have got a nosebleed vs Fulham, if Fulham had let Chris Martin come back etc - such fine margins.

Mel's strategy does have some logic - it was a reaction to the unsustainability of the Championship. Make recruitment more efficient by keeping a consistent playing style. Make the playing staff cheaper by growing our own youngsters. That stuff was only necessary because the stupid effect of FFP/P&S and Parachute Payments. Without those, I believe that Mel would be our Jack Walker. Mel has failed, but he was within a whisker of success and has been our owner at a time when achieving success was stupendously difficult. 

Perfectly put, well balanced.

Not without fault, but so many crucial, defining moments where we've been on the verge of him being heralded as one of the best owners we've had have gone against us, through things he couldn't possibly control.

It's all caught up with us, so now he's seen as one of the worst ever owners. No middle ground allowed.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Coconut

[MrPlinkett]

1 hour ago, AGR said:

Absolute nonsense. If Clough had have been in charge for the whole of the 13/14 season we wouldn’t have even got in the play offs

I think you are right but I do think there were signs again of improvement and we would have finished maybe 7th or 8th. I believe maybe the following season would have been a play off season or even promotion under clough, maybe the season after, his style seems to be gradual improvement year on year.

Of course its about opinions and I can only say it's my opinion had clough remained then we would gone up at some point.

For those in charge the slow approach had served its purpose though and stabilised us with a capable squad in place,  they wanted to use it as a springboard to push on which you can't criticise to much considering McClarens results that season. Sacking clough probably wasn't were it wrong,  imo sacking McClaren definitely was certainly partly responsible for our long term demise.