Half of all Championship clubs on the brink of collapse

[DCFC Kicks]

13 minutes ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

Yes it is, but you may get 2 non big 6 getting champions league next year and in 3 or 4 years, you may have a different club in this big 6. The point is a hypothetical breakaway league featuring a team like Arsenal who may finish mid table and not including a team like Leicester will be too controversial. 

I understand your point, It's all hypothetical, I'm not sure how the details would work or if they would even be possible in reality. My main concern would be with how the big six leaving would affect the rest of English football. I wouldn't care about the Super League and wouldn't watch it or care about it. My understanding was the Super League teams would no longer be in the Champions League. Besides think how many different teams could qualify for it without the top 6. Of course UEFA could remove qualify spots though

[DCFC Kicks]

11 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

not very well though

Why?

9 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

yes it is a problem, but not all clubs are like that

Yes, the top 6 are the greedy ones, which is why I want rid.

[Chris_Martin]

Just now, DCFClks said:

Why?

 

all clubs need decent backing to run well.

[Chris_Martin]

1 minute ago, DCFClks said:

 

Yes, the top 6 are the greedy ones, which is why I want rid.

won't they be replaced by a new top 6 eventually though?

[jono]

17 hours ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

No possibility of promotion would be rubbish. A sustainable solution needs to be found but the problem is the riches at stake in the Premier League. Promotion and relegation is a bedrock of football in this country.

There has to be a dream and a dread.
The only salary cap needed is that all PL contracts should have a relegation clause that defines a significant and effective percentage cut in salary if relegated. No parachute money. Parachute fund to be distributed via a formula taking in league position, attendances and whatever else might reward clubs doing the right thing. 

it isn’t a sporting contest if 3 teams start each season with a vast income advantage over the rest of the league. 

[DCFC Kicks]

17 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

all clubs need decent backing to run well.

you can still have decent backing with a lot less money than they use now.

17 minutes ago, Chris_Martin said:

won't they be replaced by a new top 6 eventually though?

not if they put the regulations in to prevent it.

[Spanish]

7 minutes ago, jono said:

There has to be a dream and a dread.
The only salary cap needed is that all PL contracts should have a relegation clause that defines a significant and effective percentage cut in salary if relegated. No parachute money. Parachute fund to be distributed via a formula taking in league position, attendances and whatever else might reward clubs doing the right thing. 

it isn’t a sporting contest if 3 teams start each season with a vast income advantage over the rest of the league. 

I agree but still can't get around how the 3 promoted teams get players in that are happy with potentially a 1 year contract.  This is an extinction event in the making where a different genetic line has a greater chance of survival, every year the poorer cousins lose out a little more.

[Pearl Ram]

Did Morgan or Percy actually name which clubs are on the brink of collapse ? They know for fact the 12 clubs in trouble ?

I gather Percy has a decent reputation, Morgan, I’m unaware of but view with caution in case he’s any relation to the ego on the ITV breakfast programme, thus questionable.

Can’t help thinking there’s a bit of exaggeration and a smidge of scaremongering going on here. No doubt there are clubs sailing close to the wind but 12 going out of business...not having it.

[Ghost of Clough]

24 minutes ago, jono said:

There has to be a dream and a dread.
The only salary cap needed is that all PL contracts should have a relegation clause that defines a significant and effective percentage cut in salary if relegated. No parachute money. Parachute fund to be distributed via a formula taking in league position, attendances and whatever else might reward clubs doing the right thing. 

it isn’t a sporting contest if 3 teams start each season with a vast income advantage over the rest of the league. 

This is what will have the biggest impact on clubs running in a more sustainable manner.

In a typical season, the PL hands out about £360m to EFL clubs. £248-265m of that is to 7 or 8 clubs in receipt of parachute payments.

Outside of the parachute clubs the rest receive:
Championship: £4.65m
L1: £0.7m
L2: £0.47m

You could triple the money given to L1 and L2 clubs (£2.1m and £1.4m respectively), and still give all Championship clubs £11.5m.
To put that into perspective, Preston's Championship revenue is normally at the £12m mark, and Accrington's total revenue in L1 is currently about £2.5m.
With this method, all parachute teams are worse off, but everyone else is in a much better position.

You could even have a sliding scale based on finishing position running through all the leagues.
Championship: £7.6m (1st), £7.5m (2nd), £7.4m (3rd)... £5.3m (24th)
L1: £5.2m (1st), £5.1m (2nd), £5.0m (3rd)... £2.9m (24th)
L2: £2.8m (1st), £2.7m (2nd), £2.6m (3rd)... £0.5m (24th)
It even leaves enough to give parachute teams £10m each per season. Rather than clubs receiving £93m over 3 years they'd still get a reasonable £50m or so over the same period.

 

Remember 'Project Big Picture'?

With that sort of money, you could leave parachute money in place, increase money to all Championship clubs to match that of clubs in Y3 of parachute payments, L1 could increase to £5m and L2 clubs up to £2m.

[BaaLocks]

19 hours ago, RamNut said:

I think we should stop promotion and seek our own European competition for the top 6 championship teams. 

I've long been a proponent of winning the Championship by a landslide and then refusing promotion, I have no great interest in Premier League football, no belief that Derby can be a force in it and would not enjoy the prospect of avoiding relegation as being our season's goal.

To the OP - I do hope the government took every single one of the clubs that asked for financial support in the lockdown (at least League One and above) and told them to royally GFY. Could you be more tone deaf?????

[Beetle]

The problem with this lies with fans expectation and funding.

We as Derby fans think Derby should be in the top division or at the top of this division. We as Derby fans cannot afford to pay the players that are good enough to be at that level (and alot of us think season ticket prices are too much). Multiply that to virtually every club in the country and you find the problem.

It is a problem that cannot be solved unless:

1. all funding at all football clubs is shared so size and fanbase becomes irrelevant. No chance

2. fans realise, expect and accept the standard of player that their clubs can truly afford. No chance

[Ghost of Clough]

2 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

I've long been a proponent of winning the Championship by a landslide and then refusing promotion, I have no great interest in Premier League football, no belief that Derby can be a force in it and would not enjoy the prospect of avoiding relegation as being our season's goal.

To the OP - I do hope the government took every single one of the clubs that asked for financial support in the lockdown (at least League One and above) and told them to royally GFY. Could you be more tone deaf?????

Wolves, Villa, Leeds, Leicester. Palace have been a mid table side every year since they got promoted in 12/13. Southampton had a couple seasons of European football. Even Burnley had a season in Europe.

[Ghost of Clough]

In other news, Sheff Weds have released their 18/19 accounts. Turnover down £2.5m to £22.8m. Wages down by £6m but still 160% of turnover. £6.5m compensation for Bruce!
A key part is the stadium sale moving from the 2018 accounts to these (as expected). Big boost for them in terms of P&S.

[DCFC1388]

I agree that EFL clubs should get more money from the Prem and that parachute payments are beyond stupid.

However, without other changes as well just getting more money isnt enough. All that will happen is that extra bit of money will get spent on transfer fee's, wages & agents meaning teams are no better off.

There needs to be a salary cap based off clubs incoming revenue, a certain %. Its the only way to help teams to spend within their means. 

Then all EFL contracts have a mandatory wage % decrease in a contract if a team gets relegated (in line with the decrease in revenue) but if that team gets promoted within 2 years of relegation the player goes back to original wage if still at the club. New contracts would have to fall in line with that leagues salary cap. Would mean players in a relegation scrap actually give a damn knowing their wage will automatically drop.

Finally, no club pays an agent fee ever again. The agent works for the player, the player should pay them. This should also be a fixed rate based off a set criteria so the club doesnt ultimately pay by having to increase wages or transfer fee to cover it.

[Marriot Ram99]

This idea of there even being a top 6 is laughable for starters. Arsenal are a joke of a club, been midtable for a few years now. Tottenham have the facilities and some top players like Kane and Son but are far from elite on the pitch and never win anything. Chelsea are always up there but have not been that great in recent seasons. Its only really City, United and Liverpool so the North West clubs who are A) Established at the top of the table and B) have massive resources other teams can't compete with. Obviously Liverpool have had a crap season but they have world class players and a big transfer fund and will bounce back. Even United and Liverpool have had very poor spells in the last decade where they have been Europa sides rubbing it up with Burnley and Wolves, so really only City are consistently ahead of the rest in the last decade. Leicester would have a right to feel aggrieved not to be in a big 6 over Arsenal who are a midtable side who haven't won a league title in 17 years. 

They should keep the system how it is but significantly reduce parachute payments and only provide 1 years worth. Wage caps I disagree with, players get what the market is willing to pay which in turn is tied to club revenue from TV and merchandise, sponsorship ect. Clubs should be more prudent with their money though and account for criss and not overspend. Wage caps just won't work because it would mean some good players would just play in China or the USA from 5t times more money and its just not viable. That and the players with top lawyers who sue the people coming up with that proposal and the fact that this system of paying players very  high amounts has developed their lifestyles will match that money, so the players would be forced to sell their houses and assets ect and wouldn't accept it rightly or wrongly.

As for the idea we could play in Europe in a EFL league, that's not realistic. We would get beat by teams most can't even pronounce with 3000 seater stadiums. You shouldn't be playing in Europe against decent opposition as a championship club in my eyes. 

[DCFC27]

11 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

Less than zero chance of that happening. If they decided to reduce the size of the premier league they would simply change the number of teams relegated or promoted for as long as it takes.

The subject is about removing promotion and relegation.
If they did that it’s unlikely they would simply keep the existing teams as there is no prospect of them being relegated, it’s more likely they would take the teams based on size of the club.

Similar to how it works in the MLS where they don’t have promotion or relegation. 

[Rammy03]

2 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

I have no great interest in Premier League football, no belief that Derby can be a force in it and would not enjoy the prospect of avoiding relegation as being our season's goal.

Start believing then. I see what wolves have done, what Leicester have done, what Aston Villa are currently doing after beating us narrowly in the final only 2 years ago. Why can't Derby county do it?

[BaaLocks]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Even Burnley had a season in Europe.

You mean when they had to play four matches for the right to get knocked out in the play off stages to Olympiacos? Oh the things that dreams are made of.

Look, I've got my tongue a bit in my cheek - of course I want Derby to be as successful as they can be. But give me a choice between going to watch us have a chance of beating Luton or going to watch us have no chance of beating Liverpool and I know which I, personally, would prefer.

But I also get that the only model that works is to have some egotistical oligarch willing to fund you in the Prem where they hope they can either get their money back, or consider it well spent to get seen in sunglasses on Sky.

And I couldn't be less sympathetic to football clubs teetering on the brink - we've brought this (or maybe bought this) on ourselves. And the only winners (besides a few Portsmouth fans who got to see their team win the Cup or Man City fans who still grumble that it's not as much fun as when they stood on the Kippax) are the various English, Italian, Senegalese, Egyptian and Argentinians with co-ordinated feet who we're now moaning that we haven't got £200k a week to keep paying.

[Tamworthram]

34 minutes ago, DCFC27 said:

The subject is about removing promotion and relegation.
If they did that it’s unlikely they would simply keep the existing teams as there is no prospect of them being relegated, it’s more likely they would take the teams based on size of the club.

Similar to how it works in the MLS where they don’t have promotion or relegation. 

You can't remotely compare the creation of MLS to carving out a new Super League in England from the Premier League and EFL. 

The point I was trying to make is that if they were going to create such a super league with no promotion or relegation (which they won't) it wouldn't look anything like your suggestion. It would either be achieved by pruning the existing PL through relegation and limited (if any) promotion until the desired numbers were achieved or there would be a much smaller break away "elite" league that wouldn't include many of the teams you have mentioned including Derby. It definitely wouldn't be made up of teams spread over the top three divisions based on size however you measure that. 

Even with your rationale, history counts for nothing and would you say Wolves, West Brom and Brighton are smaller than Wednesday, Derby, Forest and Sheffield United?

[Jimbo Ram]

3 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

You mean when they had to play four matches for the right to get knocked out in the play off stages to Olympiacos? Oh the things that dreams are made of.

Look, I've got my tongue a bit in my cheek - of course I want Derby to be as successful as they can be. But give me a choice between going to watch us have a chance of beating Luton or going to watch us have no chance of beating Liverpool and I know which I, personally, would prefer.

But I also get that the only model that works is to have some egotistical oligarch willing to fund you in the Prem where they hope they can either get their money back, or consider it well spent to get seen in sunglasses on Sky.

And I couldn't be less sympathetic to football clubs teetering on the brink - we've brought this (or maybe bought this) on ourselves. And the only winners (besides a few Portsmouth fans who got to see their team win the Cup or Man City fans who still grumble that it's not as much fun as when they stood on the Kippax) are the various English, Italian, Senegalese, Egyptian and Argentinians with co-ordinated feet who we're now moaning that we haven't got £200k a week to keep paying.

I would rather see a competitive Derby side a la Jim Smith give Liverpool a game rather than watch us beat Luton 2-0. Otherwise what is the point? Surely a team like Derby are on a par with Wolves, Saints and Leicester in terms of history, fan base and stadium aren’t we? I went with a Wolves fan was it 5 years ago to the 5-0 game. They were where we are now. Things can change quickly in football. Just settling for Championship football without any desire to try and get in the top division just can’t be the way forward surely.....