The coronabrexit thread. I mean, coronavirus thread

[Archied]

7 minutes ago, therealhantsram said:

Yes that's exactly it.

There's lots of research to show that us humans are notoriously bad at weighing up risks Vs rewards. 

Problem is scientists are human too??‍♂️

[maxjam]

47 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58380867

 

39 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

O.M.G. (part 1)

Look at that left wing BBC stirring up the anti-vaxxers again!!!

Disgusting!!!

O.M.G. (part 2)

I cannot believe that some people out of hundreds of millions of doses have actually died.

Next they'll be saying somebody once died after taking aspirin, or (guffaw, guffaw) eating a peanut.

The worlds gone mad.

Mad I yell ya!

https://www.ft.com/content/cb5cb256-d103-48f8-92eb-90b61bccdde2

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796

Of course they are outlying cases - but they are also not the only ones.  According to the second (BBC) article;

'The clots are considered extremely rare - there have been 417 reported cases and 72 deaths - after 24.8 million first doses and 23.9 million second doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine in the UK.'

We are now vaccinating 16-17 year olds and now considering 12-15 year olds.  Age groups in which you are highly unlikely to die from covid or suffer from long covid for more than a couple of months.  In the short term, can we be 100% sure the vaccine won't kill any children?  Or as many children as covid would?  And thats not to mention any potential long term issues that may arise.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

And thats not to mention any potential long term issues that may arise

How do you square your apparent deep-felt devotion for not doing anything that might adversely affect our kids futures, with your apathetic cynical worldview that it's hardly worth bothering to do anything about climate change because something something China?

 

 

[G STAR RAM]

11 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

How do you square your apparent deep-felt devotion for not doing anything that might adversely affect our kids futures, with your apathetic cynical worldview that it's hardly worth bothering to do anything about climate change because something something China?

I'm sure you understand that we are in control of one of the events but not the other?

 

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

Having said that we now have approaching 2 years of data.  We now know the vast majority of people will recover, certainly in the younger age groups and if you're willing to play the odds know that whilst most people will recover a small percentage will die or be left with long covid.  If you are under 18 however - the only group I would not vaccinate - the risk factor is virtually 0.0%

I posted an article about the potential neurological problems/symptoms starting to come to light in people who have 'recovered' from having covid.

How does COVID-19 affect the brain? A troubling picture emerges. | National Geographic

Long-Term Brain Disorders in Post Covid-19 Neurological Syndrome (PCNS) Patient (nih.gov)

[maxjam]

16 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

How do you square your apparent deep-felt devotion for not doing anything that might adversely affect our kids futures, with your apathetic cynical worldview that it's hardly worth bothering to do anything about climate change because something something China?

I do the bit I can do.

If there is a petition to sign re. vaccine passports or vaccinated children, I'll sign it.  If my 13yo and 18yo want advice about getting vaccinated I'll give them my opinions - and in the case of the 13yo refuse the vaccine.

I can shake my fist at China if you like and send them an angry email but doubt they will be that concerned!  The XR crap going on in London atm isn't even targetting the Chinese Embassy.  We produce approx 1% of global emissions and given that China is increasing their emissions year on year and we are reducing ours that 1% is a declining number.  

I recycle my crap and buy ethically where possible.  I don't even drive a diesel car unlike the founder of XR...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/23/extinction-rebellion-founder-admits-drives-diesel-car/

So yeah, I do my bit but am realistic about how much my bit is actually worth.

[maxjam]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I posted an article about the potential neurological problems/symptoms starting to come to light in people who have 'recovered' from having covid.

How does COVID-19 affect the brain? A troubling picture emerges. | National Geographic

Long-Term Brain Disorders in Post Covid-19 Neurological Syndrome (PCNS) Patient (nih.gov)

I posted a study in The Lancet a few days ago showing that most children ahd completely recovered from covid after day 56;

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(21)00198-X/fulltext

Although COVID-19 in children is usually of short duration with low symptom burden, some children with COVID-19 experience prolonged illness duration. Reassuringly, symptom burden in these children did not increase with time, and most recovered by day 56. Some children who tested negative for SARS-CoV-2 also had persistent and burdensome illness. A holistic approach for all children with persistent illness during the pandemic is appropriate.

I posted another study as well about how little effect on children covid has, from Israel iirc.  I can't remember what it was now nor be bothered to go back and find it - its a few pages back if you want to look though.

[Bob The Badger]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

 

https://www.ft.com/content/cb5cb256-d103-48f8-92eb-90b61bccdde2

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-58330796

Of course they are outlying cases - but they are also not the only ones.  According to the second (BBC) article;

'The clots are considered extremely rare - there have been 417 reported cases and 72 deaths - after 24.8 million first doses and 23.9 million second doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine in the UK.'

We are now vaccinating 16-17 year olds and now considering 12-15 year olds.  Age groups in which you are highly unlikely to die from covid or suffer from long covid for more than a couple of months.  In the short term, can we be 100% sure the vaccine won't kill any children?  Or as many children as covid would?  And thats not to mention any potential long term issues that may arise.

I'm aware people will die as with every other vaccine and almost, if not all, every other medication.

Statistically it's meaningless.

As for vaccinating kids, I'm really not sure. I'll let the scientists decide as to whether it's a good idea and then to inform parents.

[maxjam]

2 hours ago, Bob The Badger said:

I'm aware people will die as with every other vaccine and almost, if not all, every other medication.

Statistically it's meaningless.

Completely agree.

 

2 hours ago, Bob The Badger said:

As for vaccinating kids, I'm really not sure. I'll let the scientists decide as to whether it's a good idea and then to inform parents.

The data now show us for younger age groups and kids covid poses less and less of a threat.  I the hope decision to vaccinate kids is being done in their interests and not the interests of the wider community - who are mostly vaccinated anyway, and it doesn't come back to haunt us years into the future. 

[Bob The Badger]

[G STAR RAM]

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/08/25/significant-proportions-of-people-admitted-to-hospital-or-dying-from-covid-19-in-england-are-vaccinated-this-doesnt-mean-the-vaccines-dont-work/

[angieram]

8 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/08/25/significant-proportions-of-people-admitted-to-hospital-or-dying-from-covid-19-in-england-are-vaccinated-this-doesnt-mean-the-vaccines-dont-work/

That's a simple but clear explanation. Thanks.

[Stive Pesley]

On 30/08/2021 at 10:35, G STAR RAM said:

I'm sure you understand that we are in control of one of the events but not the other?

But we're not though. "We" aren't in control of whether parents get to consent to vaccinate their kids. That's a matter for each individual parent to decide. Which is the correct way a functioning free country should be run.

You may have an opinion as a parent - but you absolutely don't get to force your will upon any other parent who doesn't conform to your opinion. That's no freedom at all.

For example, do you feel so strongly about imposing your will on others that you would protest outside a vaccination centre, forcing it to close and denying people access to vaccinations that they are choosing to have using their own free will?

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/19546579.recap-protests-outside-new-churchill-square-covid-vaccination-centre/

[maxjam]

58 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

But we're not though. "We" aren't in control of whether parents get to consent to vaccinate their kids. That's a matter for each individual parent to decide. Which is the correct way a functioning free country should be run.

You may have an opinion as a parent - but you absolutely don't get to force your will upon any other parent who doesn't conform to your opinion. That's no freedom at all.

For example, do you feel so strongly about imposing your will on others that you would protest outside a vaccination centre, forcing it to close and denying people access to vaccinations that they are choosing to have using their own free will?

https://www.theargus.co.uk/news/19546579.recap-protests-outside-new-churchill-square-covid-vaccination-centre/

Mountain... meet molehill.

You tried to conflate my 'apparent deep-felt devotion for not doing anything that might adversely affect our kids futures, with your apathetic cynical worldview that it's hardly worth bothering to do anything about climate change because something something China'

One I can control (my own children) or may be able to influence (voice my objection to vaccinating children against covid) whereas the other is completely beyond both mine and our Govts reach (China).  Strange argument to make imo.

Furthermore I am not trying to enforce my will on anybody.  I'm not sure at this point if you are just objecting to me having an opinion because its me. 

I will admit that I am totally against vaccinating children against covid and if the opportunity arises would make my objections known - as each of us did with the Brexit vote, but if the Govt do allow 12yo to get vaccinated I'll just go with the flow and hope it doesn't come back to bite us at a later date.

[Stive Pesley]

16 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Furthermore I am not trying to enforce my will on anybody.  I'm not sure at this point if you are just objecting to me having an opinion because its me. 

No - don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with your opinion, I'm just trying to work out where we diverge in terms of respecting people's freedom of choice around vaccinations to being ardently against vaccinating children even if that's the parent's choice

19 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I will admit that I am totally against vaccinating children against covid and if the opportunity arises would make my objections known - as each of us did with the Brexit vote, but if the Govt do allow 12yo to get vaccinated I'll just go with the flow and hope it doesn't come back to bite us at a later date.

That's fair enough, i'm not especially comfortable with it either, and we will live and (hopefully not) die by our choices. In wider terms I still believe in the right to choose above any personal misgivings over vaccinating young kids

 

 

 

[maxjam]

8 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

No - don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with your opinion, I'm just trying to work out where we diverge in terms of respecting people's freedom of choice around vaccinations to being ardently against vaccinating children even if that's the parent's choice

Well if thats the case I don't believe the evidence supports the necessity to vaccinate children.  Whilst I would agree that typically parents should have the choice, with regards to covid I think the world has gone a little bit insane.  As I said in an earlier post, I hope that any parents that do vaccinate their children have been given the full picture and not just succumbed to pressure from the Govt, Schools, peers, etc.  

 

13 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

That's fair enough, i'm not especially comfortable with it either, and we will live and (hopefully not) die by our choices. In wider terms I still believe in the right to choose above any personal misgivings over vaccinating young kids

I don't necessarily disagree with that on the whole, other than in the case of covid there is not much in the way of debate.  Unless you are one of the nutters obsessing over this thread (and I include myself in that!) I guess most people don't do any digging of their own and simply go along with what the Govt Pamphlets and BBC tell them. 

My parents for example (only watch BBC) were insistent on my 18yo having his jab until I presented them with a broader picture - they are still not happy cos they are of a generation that are strongly influenced by the reputation of the BBC but have at least stopped badgering him to get it done.  

The science has got to be 100% right when it comes to vaccinating kids - being confident, even very confident isn't enough imo.  If we vaccinate an entire generation and something does turn up in the future, we've put all our eggs in one basket - which would be a justifiable risk if covid was a child killer, but its not.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-only-0-005-of-covid-infections-among-children-have-led-to-deaths-so-vaccine-would-have-to-be-very-low-risk-12351975

[Archied]

8 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

No - don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with your opinion, I'm just trying to work out where we diverge in terms of respecting people's freedom of choice around vaccinations to being ardently against vaccinating children even if that's the parent's choice

That's fair enough, i'm not especially comfortable with it either, and we will live and (hopefully not) die by our choices. In wider terms I still believe in the right to choose above any personal misgivings over vaccinating young kids

 

 

 

Personally I believe vaccinating children is very wrong morally given the stats and overwhelming evidence that they are at minuscule threat from covid and my gut is they are being used as a shield to put in front of adults,

that said I very much believe that if a parent truly believes they are protecting they’re children by vaccinating them then that is they’re right to do so without interference, we all get things both right and wrong in the process of bringing our children up and keeping them safe , as long as our choices come from the right place then that’s the best we can do??‍♂️

Edited September 1, 2021 by Archied

[Wolfie]

15 hours ago, Archied said:

Personally I believe vaccinating children is very wrong morally given the stats and overwhelming evidence that they are at minuscule threat from covid and my gut is they are being used as a shield to put in front of adults,

that said I very much believe that if a parent truly believes they are protecting they’re children by vaccinating them then that is they’re right to do so without interference, we all get things both right and wrong in the process of bringing our children up and keeping them safe , as long as our choices come from the right place then that’s the best we can do??‍♂️

.....which is making me wonder if it's the right thing to do, to vaccinate kids every year for flu for the same reason.

[Mr. P]

Er ok.

[Stive Pesley]

48 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

.....which is making me wonder if it's the right thing to do, to vaccinate kids every year for flu for the same reason.

It has to be said that every Covid case in people I know, and every one of our multiple isolation periods have come from infections in school. Yes the kids have a very low chance of getting seriously ill, but it's an absolute fact that their role as carriers has been instrumental in the speed of the virus spreading within the community

 

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Stive Pesley