We are part way through a major squad rebuild with no money

[Archied]

7 minutes ago, plymouthram said:

Can you give details of the tactics our manager seems to have got wrong.

 

Oh god you’ve opened up a whole can of championship manager worms now ?

[Andicis]

2 minutes ago, Archied said:

So here’s how it played out , Derby make him an offer he wants nothing more to do with fulham ,does not give them chance to see if they want him and will match Derby offer or better ,,,,, yerrrr right ,,, strange it didn’t pan out that way with the Derby v Bristol contract offer?,

do you actually read the links you print ,,,, he wanted to cut short his loan and fulham wouldn’t let him when he was offered a perm contract that fulham were not prepared to commit to offering , as stated all three of Derby ,fulham and Martin don’t come out of it well but Martin actions perhaps the most understandable and defendable,,, 

but hey ho never let the facts get in the way of a good agenda?

Nobody so blind as someone who doesn't want to see. Why would Fulham get someone on a perm who didn't want to be there? Martin did not want to stay at Fulham, he wanted to be at Derby. I'm not responding again, you're ignoring the facts to push your Martin agenda that you always claim not to have, but really it is one of the only things you ever post about. 

[plymouthram]

22 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Agree with vast majority of this but I too have an issue with Cocu not starting a recognised CF.

Totally accept Waghorn & Kazim are not fit to play a whole match but really don't understand why they couldn't share the responsibility or have Hector-Ingram at least start. 

The team is clearly very low on confidence - part of that is the sequence of poor results but the bigger part is that we really don't look like scoring. Chances are very few & far between and the few that are created are inevitably wasted. We are also having a lot of periods in games where we are actually playing well but getting nothing from it. That then puts real pressure on the defence to keep a clean sheet & when we go a goal down, leads to the kind of apathetic, listless display we saw in the second half tonight. As soon as we conceded, I knew we'd lose & strongly suspect the players felt the same.

I think given the above, starting with a recognised CF was a really basic call. Yes we played nice football first half but we lacked a cutting edge & a focal point. Seems to me Cocu has tried to be a bit cute by playing no strikers but given our current mindset, I really don't think introducing something as leftfield as that was wise. I hope we revert to something a lot more orthodox on Friday.

Enjoy the break - think I'll be doing something similar ?

Got to agree, we should have gambled with Hector-ingram, but thats not Cocu style to gamble.

[Ramarena]

7 minutes ago, plymouthram said:

If we lost the next 2 matches, I doubt Mel would sack him. If he did, who is going to replace him.

It’s a good question I don’t see any obvious candidates l but I’m not a club chairman. 

I’m concerned that it’d be Rooney and some mug with coaching badges!

[plymouthram]

22 hours ago, Derbados said:

So other clubs don’t have these issues either?? It’s a problem solely unique to Derby?

do me a favour 

tell me club in the championship that isn’t struggling financially at the minute? 

The 3 clubs that got relegated with Parachute payments !

[Archied]

2 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Nobody so blind as someone who doesn't want to see. Why would Fulham get someone on a perm who didn't want to be there? Martin did not want to stay at Fulham, he wanted to be at Derby. I'm not responding again, you're ignoring the facts to push your Martin agenda that you always claim not to have, but really it is one of the only things you ever post about. 

???? why would you respond when you can’t answer how you state as fact that fulham were happy with him and would have signed him?

[europia]

5 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

 

I’m concerned that it’d be Rooney and some mug with coaching badges!

If there is a (football) God, that scenario will not materialise 

[plymouthram]

22 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

I definitely go along with the sentiment that Cocu was supposed to be a long term appointment. And, to be fair, I think that is what we needed. But he can’t keep hiding behind the excuse of needing more time. A “long term” appointment means he isn’t expected to deliver immediate promotion, it doesn’t excuse him leading the team into a relegation battle whilst offering absolutely no attacking threat.

I appreciate he’s been given a ridiculously tight budget this summer, and I’ve already said I feel sorry for him in that regard, but he’s still got to do better with the players he has at his disposal. They’re not all as bad as he has them playing at the moment. I still think we need to give him a little bit more time, but certainly nothing as stupid as writing the season off and giving him as long as he needs.

If we’re still battling relegation in a few weeks, once Cocu has had some time with his new players fully fit, then he’s got to go imo. No more excuses.

Alex Ferguson joined Manchester Utd in November 1986 and did not win a trophy until 1990. He also had more money to spend than Cocu. The board at Old Trafford stuck by him, when their fans were calling for his head. He stayed for a total of 26 years and won 38 trophies with the club.

[Millenniumram]

1 minute ago, plymouthram said:

Alex Ferguson joined Manchester Utd in November 1986 and did not win a trophy until 1990. He also had more money to spend than Cocu. The board at Old Trafford stuck by him, when their fans were calling for his head. He stayed for a total of 26 years and won 38 trophies with the club.

And this is exactly the problem with the whole “give the manager time” argument. You have to go back to the 1980s to find an example where it properly worked. The game is entirely different now, what Ferguson did back then is irrelevant.

[plymouthram]

22 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I appreciate the sentiment of the thread, but I think it’s detached from the reality of this division.

The Championship is the least safest place for a rebuild. It waits for no-one. One poor appointment, one poor transfer window, a streak of bad luck or bad decisions, and a previously strong and stable club can look on very fragile ground and look like being left behind.

There is already evidence of this - in the corresponding four fixtures last season, we picked up 9 points from 12. This season, 0 from 12. Worrying signs already that we are going backwards.

How many clubs have thought: “It’s OK. We’re X. We’ll turn things around”? 

But things didn’t get better and they ended up in League One or periously close. Leeds, Norwich, Southampton, Leicester, Sheff Utd, Sunderland, and even last season there was Hull - these are all good examples of clubs who couldn’t turn the tide.

It’s all very well saying that it’s a long term plan and things will pick up when players like Ibe, Bielik, Lawrence, Sibley and Waghorn are fit and firing. That may be the case and we’ll all be able to breathe a sigh of relief.

But what if nothing changes?

I am not saying we are going down, but it’s the kind of start some teams simply don’t recover from. Personally I don’t think we can afford to relax and rest on our laurels.

When you are in a rut like we are with a manager who is struggling to come up with the answers, there is no easy way out.

Bloody hell, I'm not inviting you to any of my parties. Mr Doom And Gloom !

[plymouthram]

14 hours ago, Tombo said:

How many rebuilds are we going to go through? When will we be built? He's had a full year.

No money? Ibe is going to be on serious bags, why haven't we spent that money on our no.1 striker target? It was a vital area we needed to strengthen.

How long can we expect to flirt with relegation and write it off as a rebuild job? Answer me that please?

I'm usually well against sacking a manager this early on, but we've got to say he is only a few games away from the chop. Its looking dire. We need inspiration fast or we are going down. I know we don't think it will happen to us, but you're never too big to go down. The evidence is stacking on us that we are relegation candidates right now. Wycombe and Barnsley are poor and that helps, but Wednesday are gaining ground fast and won't be long before they leapfrog us.

Please, please start to take this situation seriously.

There's 40 games to play, that's 120 points to play for. Don't panic ! We are only 13 points behind the leaders, Reading and they won't win the league. They have only scored 8 goals played Barnsley and Wycombe in 2 of their 5 wins. Look at the League after about 15 games played and then judge. I honestly don't think that the Rams will be in the mix this season, but relegation is not going to happen. Please, please, stop being down on the club thats seen a lot of change in players coming and going. On top of that, so many injuries to key players, which also includes missing Rooney for the next 2 games through the Covid rules having got a negatve test.

[Jourdan]

28 minutes ago, plymouthram said:

Bloody hell, I'm not inviting you to any of my parties. Mr Doom And Gloom !

That’s probably for the best!

The way this season is going, your guests would have to hide all of the wine.

[JustOneBiblicalKazim]

Now that we’ve got bored of the Farke example we’re going back to Brian Clough and Fergie. Give it a rest lads.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

2 hours ago, Archied said:

Personally not seen any fee on the potential move but I do know fulham for whatever reason we’re not prepared to commit, ,money ? Wages? Prem bound ? Mac nipped in and put the offer on the table at which point Derby wanted him back ,Martin wanted back and fulham wouldn’t allow it

to be honest at the time neither Derby ,fulham or Martin came out of the saga looking classy , bit of a poor do all round

Wrong way around mate,Martin committed to Derby over fulham and they then couldn't but him,he signed a long contract with us.

And Martin came out badly by showing loyalty to his home club,the club he was contracted to and didn't want to leave?

Not sure why you keep getting involved in this.

 

[plymouthram]

42 minutes ago, Millenniumram said:

And this is exactly the problem with the whole “give the manager time” argument. You have to go back to the 1980s to find an example where it properly worked. The game is entirely different now, what Ferguson did back then is irrelevant.

Properly worked !! Cocu has barely completed a year under more restrictions than other managers. Ferguson was given three and a half years with no trophies and then won the FA cup by beating Palace. I was giving the best example of a coach/manager given time (Yes it was 3.5 yrs). Clubs are too quick to bow to pressure from fans and the media to sack managers. They are taken on with a long term plan, whether it be 2 or more years, then before that plan as reached 15 months the club panic or bow to pressure and sack the man. The game is'nt different, there's still 11 against 11, you keep a clean sheet and you don't lose. The only thing thats changed, is the money. We are not in that position to spend like the elite 6 or 7 clubs in the top tier. Mel wants the players to come through the accademy and be in the 1st team, Manchester utd were the classic example of what we want to achieve (I.E. class of 92, Beckham, Scholes, Giggs etc) Perhaps Ferguson was lucky, with having all that talent coming through his youth team. Mel, I believe is looking for a similar happening at Derby, even though its not in the top tier. Cocu, has done it at PSV, Mel knew this and thats why he took him on. Derby have put more teenagers through their youth system into 1st team in the last couple of seasons than any other football club in EUROPE (yes thats all of Europe). We need to carry on with the long term plan. Yes we have had lots of manager's in our time in the Championship. Some were bad choices by the board(or Mel). I.E. Pearson, Clement and Rowett, I wonder if they have gone on to manage sucessful teams since (NO). You can point to Cocu failings at Fererbachce where he was sacked after only 15 games having lost 7 of them. At PSV where he spent 5yrs he had a 65.45% win rate. So I will quote an upto date stat of a current succesful manager, seeing the game is entirely different now(sorry your quote) Jurgen Klopp, just completed 5yrs with Liverpool, is win rate is 60.2%. Oh and poor old Alex Ferguson who managered in a entirely different time after 26 yrs at old Trafford only got a 59.7 % win rate. I'm sick of us chopping and changing our manager, chopping and changing the squad, spending loads of money and not getting promotion. We might take longer for our ultimate goal, but lets do it by keeping hold of a manager. Lets develop our youth team players into 1st team regulars or if so, sold on to bigger clubs to make money available on signings we need to improve the team. 

RANT OVER come on you Rams

[Archied]

7 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Wrong way around mate,Martin committed to Derby over fulham and they then couldn't but him,he signed a long contract with us.

And Martin came out badly by showing loyalty to his home club,the club he was contracted to and didn't want to leave?

Not sure why you keep getting involved in this.

 

Only get involved with the fantasy Martin quotes ( why not?) there’s lots of pro Marin quotes I agree with, like the bloke, decent player , would have liked him to stay??‍♂️

[leamram]

I get it now, if we give him long enough he will become as good as two of the greatest managers in the history of football. ?

 

[RoyMac5]

10 hours ago, plymouthram said:

Alex Ferguson joined Manchester Utd in November 1986 and did not win a trophy until 1990. He also had more money to spend than Cocu. The board at Old Trafford stuck by him, when their fans were calling for his head. He stayed for a total of 26 years and won 38 trophies with the club.

Our Alex Ferguson was Paul Clement, need another vague analogy.

[Curtains]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

Our Alex Ferguson was Paul Clement, need another vague analogy.

No our Alex Ferguson was Brian Clough    
 

Shame on you 

 

[Tyler Durden]

11 hours ago, plymouthram said:

Properly worked !! Cocu has barely completed a year under more restrictions than other managers. Ferguson was given three and a half years with no trophies and then won the FA cup by beating Palace. I was giving the best example of a coach/manager given time (Yes it was 3.5 yrs). Clubs are too quick to bow to pressure from fans and the media to sack managers. They are taken on with a long term plan, whether it be 2 or more years, then before that plan as reached 15 months the club panic or bow to pressure and sack the man. The game is'nt different, there's still 11 against 11, you keep a clean sheet and you don't lose. The only thing thats changed, is the money. We are not in that position to spend like the elite 6 or 7 clubs in the top tier. Mel wants the players to come through the accademy and be in the 1st team, Manchester utd were the classic example of what we want to achieve (I.E. class of 92, Beckham, Scholes, Giggs etc) Perhaps Ferguson was lucky, with having all that talent coming through his youth team. Mel, I believe is looking for a similar happening at Derby, even though its not in the top tier. Cocu, has done it at PSV, Mel knew this and thats why he took him on. Derby have put more teenagers through their youth system into 1st team in the last couple of seasons than any other football club in EUROPE (yes thats all of Europe). We need to carry on with the long term plan. Yes we have had lots of manager's in our time in the Championship. Some were bad choices by the board(or Mel). I.E. Pearson, Clement and Rowett, I wonder if they have gone on to manage sucessful teams since (NO). You can point to Cocu failings at Fererbachce where he was sacked after only 15 games having lost 7 of them. At PSV where he spent 5yrs he had a 65.45% win rate. So I will quote an upto date stat of a current succesful manager, seeing the game is entirely different now(sorry your quote) Jurgen Klopp, just completed 5yrs with Liverpool, is win rate is 60.2%. Oh and poor old Alex Ferguson who managered in a entirely different time after 26 yrs at old Trafford only got a 59.7 % win rate. I'm sick of us chopping and changing our manager, chopping and changing the squad, spending loads of money and not getting promotion. We might take longer for our ultimate goal, but lets do it by keeping hold of a manager. Lets develop our youth team players into 1st team regulars or if so, sold on to bigger clubs to make money available on signings we need to improve the team. 

RANT OVER come on you Rams

Have you heard of the concept of paragraphs they're a wonderful thing.