We are part way through a major squad rebuild with no money

[RadioactiveWaste]

I agree with almost everything the OP said but I just feel like it's never going to come.

I want it to.

The team has been getting better over the last few matches.

The darkest hour is right before the dawn as they say.

[Ghost of Clough]

8 minutes ago, r4derby said:

Is Whittaker a central striker? He’s played out wide every time in the first team. Hector-Ingram would have gotten the nod from me

 

6 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I think he is @Ghost of Clough? Looked good through the middle previously.

Played mostly on the right for the U18s and U23s and occasionally on the left. Only really played central when Stretton was out injured.

His end product (goals and assists) was equally as good when playing on the right or down the middle.

[LeedsCityRam]

8 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

I came on here at half time to see mostly positive posts about the best half of football we've played this season. Good flowing, attacking football. I posted that I feared it would all be forgotten if Huddersfield clagged a goal. In fairness, it was a good breakaway from their viewpoint. But anyway, the predictable meltdown then ensues.

We get new "Cocu out" threads - why not use the existing ones? Is the thinking the more threads, the more pressure on Mel?

Then, we get the suggestion of McCarthy or Pullis as a new manager. I hope to god that was a joke but then some of the other suggestions make me wonder.

I think what has upset me the most tonight is that a fair minded poster, that I respect enormously, even queried leaving Waghorn and Kazim-Richards on the bench. They are not yet match fit. Lawrence is only just coming back and it was probable that he wouldn't make it through the whole game. It would've been daft to start with two less-than-fully-fit players.

But, in the rush to dig at Cocu, someone even asked why he isn't playing Sibley. Because he's injured. Do you guys want unfit/injured players in the team?

But that made me wonder, how many posters are either not following details like injuries, transfer embargoes etc. I know most people are but when you see comments like that....

So, to sack Cocu now, part way through this rebuild project - in my opinion - would be harsh on him and bad in the long run for our great club.

After years of expensive but failed attempts to get back in the top flight, Cocu is embarking on a long term project. Mel hired him to do that because Cocu promotes youth.

Of course, the academy players need time to develop. It also helps to supplement those academy players with experienced and quality players.

It's difficult to do that when the budget is effectively zero. So Cocu has had to shift out the high earners, some of which I'm sure he'd like to have kept (well Martin) and bring in bargains such as Byrne, Marshall, Ibe, Duncan and Kazim-Richards.

Ibe and Duncan were cheap because they're not yet fit.

That's to go with Lawrence, Waghorn and Holmes. Now we have Rooney out.

So please, appreciate the football that he's trying to play (see first half) against the context of a major overhaul of the squad and a long list of unavailable forwards.

Sure, if we sacked Cocu and brought a new manager in, no doubt results would pick up. But I would argue that's not because Cocu is doing anything wrong but because the injured attackers are fit again.

Please, if you don't already, realise where the club is at.... We have no money. The squad needed a total rebuild. Too many of our forwards have been injured.

Think of the bigger picture. We will reap the rewards if Cocu be allowed to finish the rebuild.

Long post. Thank you for reading it if you stuck through it. I feel the atmosphere in here is becoming a little toxic so I'll try and take a break while you "outers" argue over which hoof ball manager you want.

COYR ?

Agree with vast majority of this but I too have an issue with Cocu not starting a recognised CF.

Totally accept Waghorn & Kazim are not fit to play a whole match but really don't understand why they couldn't share the responsibility or have Hector-Ingram at least start. 

The team is clearly very low on confidence - part of that is the sequence of poor results but the bigger part is that we really don't look like scoring. Chances are very few & far between and the few that are created are inevitably wasted. We are also having a lot of periods in games where we are actually playing well but getting nothing from it. That then puts real pressure on the defence to keep a clean sheet & when we go a goal down, leads to the kind of apathetic, listless display we saw in the second half tonight. As soon as we conceded, I knew we'd lose & strongly suspect the players felt the same.

I think given the above, starting with a recognised CF was a really basic call. Yes we played nice football first half but we lacked a cutting edge & a focal point. Seems to me Cocu has tried to be a bit cute by playing no strikers but given our current mindset, I really don't think introducing something as leftfield as that was wise. I hope we revert to something a lot more orthodox on Friday.

Enjoy the break - think I'll be doing something similar ?

[Derbados]

1 minute ago, Marriott Ram99 said:

I hope that's not aimed at me I've said for a while now enough excuses for Cocu, just think loosing Bogle and Martin has badly impacted our attacking ability. 

Not aimed at you bud

[Curtains]

2 minutes ago, Derbados said:

Keep rolling out those excuses guys. . . 

What you think we have no injuries and we aren’t skint and we haven’t been on an FA charge with soft embargo and MM didn’t want to play 5 Academy players and wouldn’t fund CM and TH contracts.  Oh wait a minute it’s all Cocus fault. 

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

1 minute ago, IslandExile said:

Ok, apologies then. I thought it was well known that he's been injured since before Norwich. Sometimes things like that can be missed. In interviews with Cocu since, all the focus has really been on the likes of Lawrence and Waghorn. Because we need fit forwards.

No apology necessary.

I honestly thought prior to the Norwich  match Sibley was being protected due to the strong link with them ? ?s from ? end Road. 
Didn’t realise he was injured.

Onwards and upwards COYR ??

[GrimsbyRam]

8 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Ok, apologies then. I thought it was well known that he's been injured since before Norwich. Sometimes things like that can be missed. In interviews with Cocu since, all the focus has really been on the likes of Lawrence and Waghorn. Because we need fit forwards.

We had one and loaned him out to a team we will be battling out relegation with 

[Derbados]

Just now, Curtains said:

What you think we have no injuries and we aren’t skint and we haven’t been on an FA charge with soft embargo and MM didn’t want to play 5 Academy players and wouldn’t fund CM and TH contracts.  Oh wait a minute it’s all Cocus fault. 

So other clubs don’t have these issues either?? It’s a problem solely unique to Derby?

do me a favour 

tell me club in the championship that isn’t struggling financially at the minute? 

[Curtains]

1 minute ago, Derbados said:

So other clubs don’t have these issues either?? It’s a problem solely unique to Derby?

do me a favour 

tell me club in the championship that isn’t struggling financially at the minute? 

Forest could not beat Rotherham tonight and a massive 1point advantage on Derby having spent millions. 
 

 

[IslandExile]

1 minute ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Agree with vast majority of this but I too have an issue with Cocu not starting a recognised CF.

Totally accept Waghorn & Kazim are not fit to play a whole match but really don't understand why they couldn't share the responsibility or have Hector-Ingram at least start. 

The team is clearly very low on confidence - part of that is the sequence of poor results but the bigger part is that we really don't look like scoring. Chances are very few & far between and the few that are created are inevitably wasted. We are also having a lot of periods in games where we are actually playing well but getting nothing from it. That then puts real pressure on the defence to keep a clean sheet & when we go a goal down, leads to the kind of apathetic, listless display we saw in the second half tonight. As soon as we conceded, I knew we'd lose & strongly suspect the players felt the same.

I think given the above, starting with a recognised CF was a really basic call. Yes we played nice football first half but we lacked a cutting edge & a focal point. Seems to me Cocu has tried to be a bit cute by playing no strikers but given our current mindset, I really don't think introducing something as leftfield as that was wise. I hope we revert to something a lot more orthodox on Friday.

Enjoy the break - think I'll be doing something similar ?

Cheers pal.

I was hoping he'd play Hector-Ingram, or Whittaker, myself. 

Maybe you give a clue why he didn't though, and others have said this too, it's better to introduce youngsters into a team with more confidence and that's playing better. It would've been a lot of pressure on either of those youngsters to carry the attack.

Hector-Ingram nearly went out on loan which also suggests to me that they don't think he's quite ready yet.

A few, myself included, have suggested playing Whittaker up front but others say he's too lightweight.

I actually thought Knight, Lawrence and Joswiak interchanged quite well and chances were created, though not taken admittedly.

[Millenniumram]

I definitely go along with the sentiment that Cocu was supposed to be a long term appointment. And, to be fair, I think that is what we needed. But he can’t keep hiding behind the excuse of needing more time. A “long term” appointment means he isn’t expected to deliver immediate promotion, it doesn’t excuse him leading the team into a relegation battle whilst offering absolutely no attacking threat.

I appreciate he’s been given a ridiculously tight budget this summer, and I’ve already said I feel sorry for him in that regard, but he’s still got to do better with the players he has at his disposal. They’re not all as bad as he has them playing at the moment. I still think we need to give him a little bit more time, but certainly nothing as stupid as writing the season off and giving him as long as he needs.

If we’re still battling relegation in a few weeks, once Cocu has had some time with his new players fully fit, then he’s got to go imo. No more excuses.

[Mckram]

5 minutes ago, Marriott Ram99 said:

Loosing Martin and Bogle was massive, people can chat poo about Martin all they want but he was our key player in attack, with Bogle our 2nd most creative player. He couldn't defend well but going forward he always was positive and could create space for other players with his dribbling. 

I understand that, but does losing Martin and Bogle take us from the form of a top 6 side (after January) to being a bottom 3 side this season?

Surely if they’re that important to Cocu then we do more to keep them? I understand with Bogle that money talks and we took the fee, but if Martin was that big in Cocu’s grand plans then I’m fairly certain we give him that extra year he wanted.

I think Cocu has more involvement in transfers than others think. 

[nottingram]

I mean the “excuses” are hardly the stuff of dog eating homework are they?

All of them are in my opinion perfectly valid reasons for underperformance. He has had to cut the wage bill, he hasn’t been given everything he needs and wants (okay - not many managers get everything but they might at least be given a centre forward to work with), there is a ridiculous injury pile up, we have had a soft transfer embargo - and that is just this season, I think we have now moved past the shenanigans of last season.

Obviously anyone is perfectly entitled to believe that those reasons aren’t adequate to explain the current situation. But to me, “excuses” goes beyond that and implies that those aren’t actual things that have happened.

I have even seen calls for Mac 3 tonight for crying out loud. If only we had first hand evidence of how he managed his team through an injury crisis. 

[DCFC1976]

29 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

I came on here at half time to see mostly positive posts about the best half of football we've played this season. Good flowing, attacking football. I posted that I feared it would all be forgotten if Huddersfield clagged a goal. In fairness, it was a good breakaway from their viewpoint. But anyway, the predictable meltdown then ensues.

We get new "Cocu out" threads - why not use the existing ones? Is the thinking the more threads, the more pressure on Mel?

Then, we get the suggestion of McCarthy or Pullis as a new manager. I hope to god that was a joke but then some of the other suggestions make me wonder.

I think what has upset me the most tonight is that a fair minded poster, that I respect enormously, even queried leaving Waghorn and Kazim-Richards on the bench. They are not yet match fit. Lawrence is only just coming back and it was probable that he wouldn't make it through the whole game. It would've been daft to start with two less-than-fully-fit players.

But, in the rush to dig at Cocu, someone even asked why he isn't playing Sibley. Because he's injured. Do you guys want unfit/injured players in the team?

But that made me wonder, how many posters are either not following details like injuries, transfer embargoes etc. I know most people are but when you see comments like that....

So, to sack Cocu now, part way through this rebuild project - in my opinion - would be harsh on him and bad in the long run for our great club.

After years of expensive but failed attempts to get back in the top flight, Cocu is embarking on a long term project. Mel hired him to do that because Cocu promotes youth.

Of course, the academy players need time to develop. It also helps to supplement those academy players with experienced and quality players.

It's difficult to do that when the budget is effectively zero. So Cocu has had to shift out the high earners, some of which I'm sure he'd like to have kept (well Martin) and bring in bargains such as Byrne, Marshall, Ibe, Duncan and Kazim-Richards.

Ibe and Duncan were cheap because they're not yet fit.

That's to go with Lawrence, Waghorn and Holmes. Now we have Rooney out.

So please, appreciate the football that he's trying to play (see first half) against the context of a major overhaul of the squad and a long list of unavailable forwards.

Sure, if we sacked Cocu and brought a new manager in, no doubt results would pick up. But I would argue that's not because Cocu is doing anything wrong but because the injured attackers are fit again.

Please, if you don't already, realise where the club is at.... We have no money. The squad needed a total rebuild. Too many of our forwards have been injured.

Think of the bigger picture. We will reap the rewards if Cocu be allowed to finish the rebuild.

Long post. Thank you for reading it if you stuck through it. I feel the atmosphere on here is becoming a little toxic so I'll try and take a break while you "outers" argue over which hoof ball manager you want.

COYR ?

The same football that in the first half gave us one shot on target and has not improved over the time he’s been here. I’m not necessarily certain that I want him gone but hand on heart can you really see an improvement. He has known for a while now the restrictions that the club are under but we seem to have gone backwards even since the away game at Birmingham at the end of the season. There doesn’t seem a clear plan of how we’re going to play... 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3, 3-4-3, 3-5-2... no one seems to know?!

[Rev]

Damn you @IslandExile, I was building my Cocu guy for the bonfire, yet you've talked me round with a sensible argument.

Who do you think you are, introducing reason into the argument?

[Marriot Ram99]

5 minutes ago, Mckram said:

I understand that, but does losing Martin and Bogle take us from the form of a top 6 side (after January) to being a bottom 3 side this season?

Surely if they’re that important to Cocu then we do more to keep them? I understand with Bogle that money talks and we took the fee, but if Martin was that big in Cocu’s grand plans then I’m fairly certain we give him that extra year he wanted.

I think Cocu has more involvement in transfers than others think. 

For me we should have offered Martin 40k a week and 2 years +an option of another year if that is what it needed, to get a player in of his quality we would have to spend 8+million in this market.  Also Selling Bogle and Lowe and not fully reinvesting the money was very disappointing, but maybe understandable e due to Covid. I agree we shouldn't be doing as badly as we are but sometimes small margins can make a big difference and maybe those departures and Lowe going turned the tide against our chances. 

[May Contain Nuts]

18 minutes ago, Derbados said:

Keep rolling out those excuses guys. . . 

I hope you're not an advocate for the appointment of Paul Cook.

The bloke who's just relegated Wigan.

Their 12 point deduction was no excuse, excuses aren't allowed!

[Derbados]

9 minutes ago, Curtains said:

Forest could not beat Rotherham tonight and a massive 1point advantage on Derby having spent millions. 
 

 

Forest have 4 points from the last 2 games and a manager with a proven track record of multiple promotions from this Division.

they saw their failings in the previous manager and rather than make excuse after excuse, addressed it and low and behold. . . 
they’re picking up results again! Who’d have thought it ay? 

[Derbados]

Just now, Coconut said:

I hope you're not an advocate for the appointment if Paul Cook.

He's just relegated Wigan.

Their 12 point deduction was no excuse.

Paul Cook not for me 

I’d go balls out for big Dave Wagner 

[Curtains]

2 minutes ago, Derbados said:

Forest have 4 points from the last 2 games and a manager with a proven track record of Multiple promotionS from this Division.

they saw their failings in the previous manager and rather than make excuse after excise, addressed it and low and behold. . . 
 

they’re picking up results again! Who’d have thought it ay? 

You may eat your word on Saturday