SaintRam Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 1 minute ago, jono said: I know it’s unlikely but let’s just say we scrape in to the play offs and then get to the PL and the judgement / legal business is incomplete. So it looks like we are going up Then we lose the argument sometime in July ... Do we get refused promotion, will the PL start us on minus points, will we get minus points if we go down the next season and collect a deferred EFL penalty ? There are a lot of curious scenarios that could come out of this. No, I don't think so - based on observing many teams in the past; getting promoted seems to be like leaving the EFL's jurisdiction. Many teams, for example, have breached FFP but haven't been punished as they got promoted in the last year. You can still be punished upon re-entering the EFL later down the line, though, I believe. I think that's what happened to QPR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mihangel Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 14 hours ago, europia said: Yes fair points. Really hope next season isn't wrecked by points deduction. Would rather we didn't appeal ( inevitably we will lose out at some point) and take the points deduction this season, when it wont make too much difference, as things stand. Appeal what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 36 minutes ago, SaintRam said: No, I don't think so - based on observing many teams in the past; getting promoted seems to be like leaving the EFL's jurisdiction. Many teams, for example, have breached FFP but haven't been punished as they got promoted in the last year. You can still be punished upon re-entering the EFL later down the line, though, I believe. I think that's what happened to QPR. But at what point do you stop being a Championship team and become a Premier League team? On the last day of the season? When the fixtures are released? Some time in between? Some time after? Obviously, it’s an extremely unlikely scenario, but the timing would be crucial. I’ve been studying too much law ffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 13 hours ago, uttoxram75 said: Its really going to annoy the EFL if they take points of us this season and we win the FA Cup then get promoted next season. That'll annoy me too, I'm in Portugal on FA Cup Final day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 54 minutes ago, Rosythram said: I agree entirely, some one has to show the EFL up for what they are and if MM is correct in his diagnosis of the situation, let it be us. Take the bloody clowns to the cleaners and prove they are not fit for a Circus. FIFY ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CornwallRam Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 13 hours ago, uttoxram75 said: Its really going to annoy the EFL if they take points of us this season and we win the FA Cup then get promoted next season. Best way to annoy the EFL and Gibson is if the club buy back the stadium for £80m, thus proving it is worth that, and fork out £10m for the roof and fancy pitch cover, and then sell it back to Mel for £160m as a fully functioning venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 16 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: But at what point do you stop being a Championship team and become a Premier League team? On the last day of the season? When the fixtures are released? Some time in between? Some time after? Obviously, it’s an extremely unlikely scenario, but the timing would be crucial. I’ve been studying too much law ffs. There's a cut off point for receiving punishments in the current season - 31st March sound familiar. Any punishment after that date means the points deduction would be in the following season. Since the EFL's (Championship's) rules have been aligned, The Premier League should start punishing clubs once promoted (Villa being investigated). The QPR case was before the rules were aligned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 15 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: But at what point do you stop being a Championship team and become a Premier League team? On the last day of the season? When the fixtures are released? Some time in between? Some time after? Obviously, it’s an extremely unlikely scenario, but the timing would be crucial. I’ve been studying too much law ffs. If we're worried about the timing we can just take them to court. Even if we lose; it delays the process by ages- pretty sure that's where its heading anyway. I suspect though that it is a pretty immediate process. Probably on/just before the opening of the summer transfer window (1st July?), seeing as there are different rules for that depending on the competition you're in. @Ghost of Clough got us covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: But at what point do you stop being a Championship team and become a Premier League team? On the last day of the season? When the fixtures are released? Some time in between? Some time after? Obviously, it’s an extremely unlikely scenario, but the timing would be crucial. I’ve been studying too much law ffs. When all paperwork has been completed, But if Mary the Cleaning Lady has gone on Holiday and forgot to put the office keys back in the cupboard, Then a phone call to Joseph "Sepp" Blatter and ask if the Russians can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 1 hour ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: But at what point do you stop being a Championship team and become a Premier League team? On the last day of the season? When the fixtures are released? Some time in between? Some time after? Obviously, it’s an extremely unlikely scenario, but the timing would be crucial. I’ve been studying too much law ffs. At what point does a call of nature become (through over-vigorous shaking off of the drops) an indecent act..........? On such points of extreme detail does the law turn........wait till you've been immersed in this stuff for 30 years or more........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 26 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: At what point does a call of nature become (through over-vigorous shaking off of the drops) an indecent act..........? On such points of extreme detail does the law turn........wait till you've been immersed in this stuff for 30 years or more........ I don’t want to be a lawyer anymore. If it’s anything like you’ve just described, I’ve made a lucky escape! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4ev6is Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 I say that we appeal it and then take them on we done nothing wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OohMartWright Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 41 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: At what point does a call of nature become (through over-vigorous shaking off of the drops) an indecent act..........? On such points of extreme detail does the law turn........wait till you've been immersed in this stuff for 30 years or more........ I think if you've been immersed in the stuff for 30 years you've been shaking off the drops too vigorously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europia Posted February 10, 2020 Share Posted February 10, 2020 10 hours ago, ShoreRam said: Appeal what? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/01/17/Derby-county-owner-accuses-efl-unlawful-efl-rule-breach-charge/ OK, for the pedantic, I should have said 'contest' rather than 'appeal' . Anyhow that's the general drift of it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenBr Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 18 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said: There's a cut off point for receiving punishments in the current season - 31st March sound familiar. Any punishment after that date means the points deduction would be in the following season. Since the EFL's (Championship's) rules have been aligned, The Premier League should start punishing clubs once promoted (Villa being investigated). The QPR case was before the rules were aligned. Officially they may be aligned, but it doesn't seem like the Prem would ever give a points deduction for breaches of EFL FFP. The below is regarding Villa. "The EFL were said to be in talks with the Premier League over a consistent approach to FFP breaches - although the Premier League were said to be reluctant due to how difficult it would be for newly-promoted clubs to avoid relegation with a points deduction." It will be interesting to see if the EPL does anything if Villa breach the EPLs higher FFP limits though as they were rumoured to be close to doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 An interesting article where I was expecting our name to pop up but didn't... https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/feb/11/premier-league-clubs-australian-bank-macquarie-loans-tv-earnings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 What is happening with this charge? Is there a next date when we know something will happen or a timeframe for it to be completed by? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilkleyram Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 17 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: What is happening with this charge? Is there a next date when we know something will happen or a timeframe for it to be completed by? I would guess that lawyers are the issue. They know we will contest the charges so they will need to set up a tribunal made of lawyers who know sport. Probably a limited field with limited availability. They also need to give their lawyers and ours time to prepare a case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 I thought the 'independant' hearing would take place before any legal battle? I reckon that panel will stitch us up, it will be about as impartial as the Daily Mail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted February 14, 2020 Share Posted February 14, 2020 17 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: What is happening with this charge? Is there a next date when we know something will happen or a timeframe for it to be completed by? Not sure, but it usually takes the EFL a month to write a follow up letter. Late March would be my guess - they won't want this to drag over to next season. Looking into the Birmingham case brought up something fairly interesting. The EFL charged Birmingham in August 2018. The sanction guidelines for clubs failing P&S were changed in September 2018, and from what I can tell, Birmingham were punished based on those amendments. The EFL actually tried to push for a harsher penalty than what was voted on in September 2018! Taken from the Birmingham case Based on this, the starting point for our punishment is 12 points (as I'm sure you know) if we exceeded the limit by more than £15m. If we exceeded the limit by less than £15m then the penalty ranges from 3 to 12 points. Given our trend in spending has most likely reduced since the 17/18 season due to a reduction in wages, we may see the penalty reduce further. However, we could see extra points taken off if we're judged to have misled the EFL, auditors, valuers, or someone else. Undefined 'mitigating factors' also can also be considered - maybe being led to believe we were complying with the rules, a sponsorship deal collapsing, injuries to new signings? On the hearing being so long after the charge was brought: Considering "the season following the conclusion of the relevant 3 year period" was last season, I'm not sure where that leaves us regarding the period ending in 2018, as it's suggested any possible penalty should have been handed out last season. The commission also noted how Birmingham didn't consult the EFL regarding the signings despite knowing they'd fail P&S. This may play in Derby's favour as the EFL was involved in ourstadium sale and amortisation policy. Birmingham's penalty: starting point was 7 points due to overspend, minus 1 point for promptly accepting the breach, plus 3 for deliberately exceeding the limit (heavy spend on players in 2017) = 9 points total Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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