Rowett II?

[ramsbottom]

I mean this with the utmost respect...

DUCK RIGHT OFF!!!

[Bob Gnarly]

52 minutes ago, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

I hate how some fans are more obsessed with instant promotion (at any cost) over long term thinking.

Cocu might not guarantee it or even be the man who sees it out. But should he leave Derby I want us to find another man with the same ideas to have another go.

We seem to be living through a time where Derby fans literally want everything at once; Promotion of youth, spending big on players, financial security and amazing football.

Pick two. Mine is Promotion of youth and financial security.

Looks like most of you would choose, spending big and amazing football. We've been there, done that, yet here we still are.

What you're saying here is you'd happily be a Brentford? 

Not a bad thing either, just want some clarity. I mean, it can't be bad playing exciting football whilst having a sustainable football business model I suppose. They just never seem threatening enough to go up.

The hardest thing is to get the balance of all 4 of the points you have mentioned.

[Dethorn]

Yeah in  a heart beat with Nigel Pearson as assistant and Tommy Docherty as DoF

[England Ram]

People have short memories. 
The quality of football under Rowett was turgid, awful football. The most boring football I have ever seen. 
 

Yes, currently what we are watching is also poor, but Rowett ended up with most of the team he wanted.

Cocu has not had that opportunity as is working on removing a culture within the club that will only happen when contracts finish and transfer windows open. Once he’s had the chance to change things and bring his own players in, then we can try and get him out. 

[BBG83]

26 minutes ago, Bob Gnarly said:

What you're saying here is you'd happily be a Brentford? 

Not a bad thing either, just want some clarity. I mean, it can't be bad playing exciting football whilst having a sustainable football business model I suppose. They just never seem threatening enough to go up.

The hardest thing is to get the balance of all 4 of the points you have mentioned.

No the aim has to be promotion still. Of course it does. But its quite clear we're going to 'attempt' to make good use of the academy. Either by developing long term first team players or by selling them for good money, enabling us to dip into the transfer market when needed without it affecting us financially. That's Mel's business head working overtime.

Its ambitious really. There's models for success in Holland where it works, but they've been doing it for years. To do it in four years is a challenge, but one I think we need to embrace.

I mean I even wonder if we might see better performances now if the atmosphere wasn't so negative.

Edit. We're also a far more attractive club in a good area compared to Brentford.

[CornwallRam]

3 hours ago, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

I hate how some fans are more obsessed with instant promotion (at any cost) over long term thinking.

Cocu might not guarantee it or even be the man who sees it out. But should he leave Derby I want us to find another man with the same ideas to have another go.

We seem to be living through a time where Derby fans literally want everything at once; Promotion of youth, spending big on players, financial security and amazing football.

Pick two. Mine is Promotion of youth and financial security.

Looks like most of you would choose, spending big and amazing football. We've been there, done that, yet here we still are.

That's a very good post. Unfortunately, I disagree with all of it as it's based on a series of incorrect assumptions.

My post was in response to post which called for the return of Gary Rowett. I assume that it was tongue in cheek, but underlying it is the idea of a pragmatic manger, rather than a dogmatic one. My point was that if we're going to go down that route, there are better managers than Rowett, without the baggage.

Who is obsessed with instant promotion? That's just a lazy conclusion.

At any cost? By that you appear to imply that it is financially more prudent to build a team rather than employ a manger who makes the best of the players at his disposal and achieves promotion rather more quickly. A manager who can best utilise existing resources is economically far more efficient. Has it really escaped your notice that teams vying for promotion from this division are losing tens of millions a season? Even teams languishing in the lower reaches are losing a million a month. The cost of taking your time to get promoted is colossal. It is the patient approach which is fiscally far more damaging.

Long term thinking? That comes with a presumption that there is a linear pathway to success where patience and planning is definitely rewarded by promotion. There is no evidence that this is the case. Of the last 30 teams promoted from this division, 23 had managers in their first full season. Clubs who build over a long period virtually never get promoted. The slight exception is clubs promoted from League 1 who carry the momentum forward. Yet in these cases, the managers achieved promotion in their first season, albeit from the third tier. Long term thinking does not work in this division as it's so competitive. The better players always want to move on and you're left with the squad fillers who are another year older. The parachute teams have larger cheque books so get the choice of the talent pool. That means bringing in the best of the rest. They almost always have flaws, so most of them don't improve your side - at least not to the extent of being a top two side. It's one step forward and two steps back. Building a strong squad is almost impossible.

And now you're going to say, 'what about building with youth?' Again, it doesn't happen at Championship level. Firstly, the best youngster don't want to join a second tier academy. Secondly, the few players that do make the grade don't necessarily fit with the team's style of play. We'll get a trickle of first team players from the academy, but never enough to even replace the players who move on at the end of their contracts. At this level, the youth set up can only supply an odd player, not the raw material to build a player - show me a Championship side that has ever been promoted with more than a couple of former youth players?

You also assume that Cocu's style is the one which we should build on. Why? For a start it's tedious. It's not good football. It's slow and negative. Chris Hughton's teams have all played far better football than Cocu's. Even Rowett or Warnock teams are better to watch. Then there's the proven success of his style - that'll be the worst form for three decades then? So you want to base our style going forward on tedium and failure? Are you a Forest fan in disguise?

In my experience Derby fans don't want anything different to other fans. Forty years ago Derby fans also wanted the same as they do now. We all want to win every game. Of course we'll accept not winning every game. That's easier to do when the players appear to be putting the effort in and there is a spark of something developing. 

Your 'pick two' notion 'promotion of youth and financial security'. You do realise that those two things are mutually exclusive don't you? A deliberate policy to promote youth by definition makes the first team weaker - if the players were good enough the manager would pick them without having a policy enforced. That means more years in this division and more £30m losses - eventually you turn up to the ground to meet a man in a suit saying the court have instructed him to take over the administration of the club. It's woolly thinking.

In this division, for any of the bigger clubs, promotion within the available resources as quickly as possible has to be the aim. There is no golden stairway that rewards youth, good football or patience. Owners adding extra KPI's just muddies the water. Championship football is unsustainable, thus the most logical path is to get promoted as quickly as possible.

Fans also prefer success to good football. I know many will protest, but very few moaned when we got promoted under Billy. All the appreciation of fifteen consecutive passes disappears when the opposition intercept the sixteenth and put the ball in our net three seconds later. I've also never noticed anyone at PP or the BBG analyzing the quality of the football when they're jumping up to celebrate a goal or cheering the winning team off.

Your last sentence is just quite odd. We're Derby fans. We'd all choose winning and promotion. That's kind of the point. But we don't get to choose how it's done. What works is getting the right manager in and giving him enough resources to compete at the sharp end. What doesn't work is spending small and playing terrible football. 

[Comrade 86]

[G-Ram]

The man sold Will Hughes & bought Cameron Jerome. What he said & did were two different things. Said he wanted a young side playing good stuff. He delivered the opposite. Might have got to the playoffs but took us backwards in my opinion 

[Wignall12]

4 hours ago, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

No the aim has to be promotion still. Of course it does. But its quite clear we're going to 'attempt' to make good use of the academy. Either by developing long term first team players or by selling them for good money, enabling us to dip into the transfer market when needed without it affecting us financially. That's Mel's business head working overtime.

Its ambitious really. There's models for success in Holland where it works, but they've been doing it for years. To do it in four years is a challenge, but one I think we need to embrace.

I mean I even wonder if we might see better performances now if the atmosphere wasn't so negative.

Edit. We're also a far more attractive club in a good area compared to Brentford.

You only need to look at how well our youth teams are doing to see that it takes time, we will reap the benefits in time but time it WILL take . In the mean time bear with .

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

Rowett 2? 

[europia]

1 hour ago, Wignall12 said:

You only need to look at how well our youth teams are doing to see that it takes time, we will reap the benefits in time but time it WILL take . In the mean time bear with .

Well we are all patient bunch, us Rams fans. After all we've only been out of the top flight getting on for 12 years ?

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

9 minutes ago, europia said:

Well we are all patient bunch, us Rams fans. After all we've only been out of the top flight getting on for 12 years ?

I can vaguely remember such a thing.  Is it attached to a dart .?

[Bob Gnarly]

15 hours ago, CocuCrazyCocuMad said:

No the aim has to be promotion still. Of course it does. But its quite clear we're going to 'attempt' to make good use of the academy. Either by developing long term first team players or by selling them for good money, enabling us to dip into the transfer market when needed without it affecting us financially. That's Mel's business head working overtime.

Its ambitious really. There's models for success in Holland where it works, but they've been doing it for years. To do it in four years is a challenge, but one I think we need to embrace.

I mean I even wonder if we might see better performances now if the atmosphere wasn't so negative.

Edit. We're also a far more attractive club in a good area compared to Brentford.

Sounds good to me.

[cheron85]

No, no, no, no, no

I disagree that the current football is more boring than Rowett - Under Rowett we just sat back, took a beating and then twice a half went legging it up field chasing a Huddlestone long ball - We were lucky enough to have the best number 10 in the league but other than that we weren't overly entertaining

Cocu obviously has an idea of how he wants us to play but has been screwed by events out of his control - Coming to the club later than he probably would have liked in the summer, losing his captain to stupidity, injuries every other game which disrupt the team - On Saturday we played our 1 fit CB and a LB because we don't have enough players in that position - We played our only 2 fit CMs and I'd even argue Holmes is really an AM - And we don't have any wingers... (maybe FloJo but obviously not fit yet)

The first 10 mins on Saturday was good - And we've seen it for 15-20 minute bursts - Are we so short sighted that we're ignoring the Preston game when we bossed the team in 2nd/3rd (at the time) for the majority of the game? Or the Boro game where even before they went down to 10 men we looked calm and in control? 

No-one is saying it's fun or even close to being good at the moment - But Rowett had half a season with the players, then a whole summer to get himself organised and still by the time we played the playoff semi final we were comfortably the second best team - Cocu hasn't even had half a season, hasn't had chance to bring in any players he might want and has been smashed around by injury

[G STAR RAM]

12 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

No, no, no, no, no

I disagree that the current football is more boring than Rowett - Under Rowett we just sat back, took a beating and then twice a half went legging it up field chasing a Huddlestone long ball - We were lucky enough to have the best number 10 in the league but other than that we weren't overly entertaining

Cocu obviously has an idea of how he wants us to play but has been screwed by events out of his control - Coming to the club later than he probably would have liked in the summer, losing his captain to stupidity, injuries every other game which disrupt the team - On Saturday we played our 1 fit CB and a LB because we don't have enough players in that position - We played our only 2 fit CMs and I'd even argue Holmes is really an AM - And we don't have any wingers... (maybe FloJo but obviously not fit yet)

The first 10 mins on Saturday was good - And we've seen it for 15-20 minute bursts - Are we so short sighted that we're ignoring the Preston game when we bossed the team in 2nd/3rd (at the time) for the majority of the game? Or the Boro game where even before they went down to 10 men we looked calm and in control? 

No-one is saying it's fun or even close to being good at the moment - But Rowett had half a season with the players, then a whole summer to get himself organised and still by the time we played the playoff semi final we were comfortably the second best team - Cocu hasn't even had half a season, hasn't had chance to bring in any players he might want and has been smashed around by injury

Yeah I enjoyed the tribute to Jim Smith too.

[DCFC27]

So many people on here are so two faced... you all sang his name louder than most of our previous managers, let’s face it we’d have all been fine with him if he hadn’t left for more money at Stoke. I don’t want him back but let’s not lie to ourselves

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, DCFC27 said:

So many people on here are so two faced... you all sang his name louder than most of our previous managers, let’s face it we’d have all been fine with him if he hadn’t left for more money at Stoke. I don’t want him back but let’s not lie to ourselves

WAAAAAT!!!!

Mate you couldn't be more wrong. Very few stood by Rowett and those that did got an absolute roasting for it. I know because I was one of them. Folk were wanting him gone after 20 games so sorry, but no, just no, you've got this horribly wrong.

[DCFC27]

Talking poo mate. That’s why there was 30000 odd fans singing his name in the last game of the season and the play off semi?

21 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

WAAAAAT!!!!

Mate you couldn't be more wrong. Very few stood by Rowett and those that did got an absolute roasting for it. I know because I was one of them. Folk were wanting him gone after 20 games so sorry, but no, just no, you've got this horribly wrong.

This forum and the actual fans/pride park tell two very different stories 

[wixman1884]

Just now, DCFC27 said:

This forum and the actual fans/pride park tell two very different stories 

@David Can we shut down or maybe just rename the forum? Is DcfcHalfFans.co.uk available?

[Andicis]

2 hours ago, DCFC27 said:

So many people on here are so two faced... you all sang his name louder than most of our previous managers, let’s face it we’d have all been fine with him if he hadn’t left for more money at Stoke. I don’t want him back but let’s not lie to ourselves

Hahahhahahahahahahhaha no. I was calling for Rowett out, along with about 50% of this forum at the time. Rowett was a crap manager and I was buzzing when he left. Most excitement of that whole season.