Cocu in or out?

[RoyMac5]

Just now, mwram1973 said:

So what if we're bank for a season, i'd sooner go backwards for a season if we are changing everything in the club, to move forward.

And lets face it Mac, Clement, Pearson, Wazza, Mac, Lampard, Clough have all failed to get us promoted.

We've been a championship team for 12 years, we have no god given right not to be relegated.

FIFY

[Jourdan]

6 hours ago, IslandExile said:

Wow. We should get another manager in quickly. 17th just isn't good enough. We should be fighting for 14th, with lofty ambitions of 13th.

Never mind the need for a total rebuild and a manager/owner with a long term vision of sustainable success.

We want 14th this season. Anything else is a failure.

How very short sighted. Give me strength.

Just no point arguing anymore. As someone pointed out before the election: people no longer listen to facts or reasoned arguments. They make their mind up early and stick with it.

Yeah, yeah, ok we get it...a club like Derby, with its support, its heritage, no matter what the squad, the preseason, the captain's antics, the injuries, we shouldn't be looking to the future, we should be fighting to finish at least 14th this season dammit.

I think you are twisting what I am saying.

No-one is against a long term plan or a vision.

What most of us think is that it should be a workable one under the right manager.

Not a misguided and impractical one that takes a perennial top half team and endangers their Championship status.

The right manager would see us slipping down the table and think twice about his approach, not stick to his guns and hide behind the promise of a long term plan or mitigating circumstances.

There are only so many hard luck stories you can tell.

The fact is that in the past 3 weeks, we have completely lost touch with the top half of the division never mind the top six. There is even a gap developing between us and teams in 13-14th.

We have gone on a run of six without a win, performed erratically in the process, and there are few to no signs that things will improve.

If this is acceptable to you, then there isn’t much more I or anyone else can say.

We are 17th and the worst could be yet to come. We have plenty of respected and measured posters expressing their concerns. That should speak volumes.

I guess time will tell and we’ll soon find out which fans should have seen which signs.

[DRBee]

1 hour ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

Why???

He’s currently seeing who fits his system and who he needs to let go. 
 

 

testing us to the point of  destruction ???

[Shaftesbury st]

16 hours ago, atherstoneram said:

I have to disagree, i can see Cocu taking us forward, he never had a pre-season, for the 1st 4 to 6 weeks of the season he was getting used to the players,what they were/are capable of and the system he wants to play, then it just gets worse, injuries, losing Keogh, etc.

 To me there is a reason he chops and changes Malone and Lowe, to see if either are developing, my thoughts one or both will be gone in Jan or at the end of the season.When they made mistakes at LB last season we had Tomori who, with his pace and tackling covered up their mistakes, they don't have that security back up this season and have been found wanting. 

Please tell me what it is you see then or is it just on a whim you see him taking us forward

[Wignall12]

2 minutes ago, DRBee said:

testing us to the point of  destruction ???

In other words working with what he's got until he can change personnel.  We've had managers come and go , we have to get shut of the dead wood before we progress , or do we just want more of the same time and again because we are so impatient with managers ?

[Shaftesbury st]

17 hours ago, Theres’s Only Wan Chope said:

I think personally he has been dealt a bad hand, he came in late, the team is obviously weaker. I’m not sure Lampard could do much better, we’ve lost Carson Tomori Keogh Wilson Mount. What quality have we gained? Maybe Bielik. As long as we aren’t near the relegation zone then I think we should stick with Cocu. The away record does suggest something is seriously wrong though. I think half this team need to go next summer. 

I think what you are explaining is blindly walking down a road for the sake of it.

A coach has to make players better or get them playing in a way that suits them, you can’t just play one way every game, you have to adapt

[Shaftesbury st]

18 hours ago, Coconut said:

Because it isn't 'blindly' doing anything

It's looking at the bigger picture, the balance of the squad, the injuries, the lack of quality, the need to bring youngsters through, all of it, everything, and concluding that it's not really fair to make a complete judgement and start demanding change.

Talk of getting rid of him at this point is as also 'blindly' thinking someone else would else would make something of this squad.

There's no evidence that this group of players, collectively, with all that's been taken away from it this season, has the ability to do better than it currently is. There's plenty of evidence to the contrary.

A change in manager could just as  easily compound the problems, like it has done before.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest they can do better, they seem clueless about what they are supposed to be doing, no continuity but you think it’s ok to swap the LB every other game..... should we also do that in other areas.

The bigger picture also has to include the Manager too, surely you can’t disagree with that with the results he’s getting. 
 

Happy to see what he achieves second half of the season but I’m expecting pretty much the same and would then suggest we consider if he’s the right man, my thoughts are probably not.

[IslandExile]

14 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

If this is acceptable to you, then there isn’t much more I or anyone else can say.

I've cropped the remainder of your post for brevity but I would urge others to read it if following this discussion.

None of us can possibly enjoy what we're seeing - from the first team - at the moment.

I'm glad you agree a long term rebuild project is necessary.

It seems our main disagreement boils down to who we feel should undertake that task. (Though it also seems that you're less prepared to right off this season).

I do believe Cocu is the person to do the rebuild. You don't and that's fair enough. Football is all about opinions.

I think Cocu - or anyone else - does need at least a couple of transfer windows and a full preseason. This demise hasn't just happened, it was masked last season by the three loanees. It will take time to put right.

Anyway, Happy Chrimbo ?

[May Contain Nuts]

29 minutes ago, Shaftesbury st said:

There is plenty of evidence to suggest they can do

Where?

Maybe individually they've been part of a better team, but last season they were carried by a couple of players who got 29 goals between them and who haven't been replaced.  A team which was consistently poo without said players.

Where's is the evidence that a team using Curtis Davies and Craig Forsyth as the CBs and having Lawrence as the biggest creative threat has been successful before?

36 minutes ago, Shaftesbury st said:

I think what you are explaining is blindly walking down a road for the sake of it.

A coach has to make players better or get them playing in a way that suits them, you can’t just play one way every game, you have to adapt

duck me, seriously?

The biggest criticism for Cocu has been that he changes things far too often and that he sets up teams to counter the opposition.

I agree, we couldn't have just stuck to one way of playing all season, we'd be bottom of the league!

There isn't 'one way' which suits the players we have available!

[NottsRam77]

2 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Where?

Maybe individually they've been part of a better team, but last season they were carried by a couple of players who got 29 goals between them and who haven't been replaced.  A team which was consistently poo without said players.

Where's is the evidence that a team using Curtis Davies and Craig Forsyth as the CBs and having Lawrence as the biggest creative threat has been successful before?

duck me, seriously?

The biggest criticism for Cocu has been that he changes things far too often and that he sets up teams to counter the opposition.

I agree, we couldn't have  just stuck to one way of playing all season, we'd be bottom of the league!

I think the poster u replying to was referring to playing style and philosophy as opposed to physical changes in starting 11

we all know cocu changes it week to week, sometimes forced sometimes by his own choice 

My interpretation was the they were referring to cocus insistence that we still try and play our way out wherever possible 

problem is way way way more often than not we play ourselves into trouble than out of it 

a possible softer transition in terms of philosophies may have been less painful for us all to endure 

the old adage run before u can walk, ie why we trying to play a certain way when we clearly don’t have the players to do so 

just my interpretation for what it’s worth 

[May Contain Nuts]

22 minutes ago, NottsRam77 said:

My interpretation was the they were referring to cocus insistence that we still try and play our way out wherever possible 

Good point, I've only quoted this part of the post but hope you don't think  I simply disregarded the rest.

For what it's worth you're not one of the posters I feel the need to rage against and I respect your opinion, it's generally a bit more balanced and considerative than,  well, quite a few even if we have a different perspective.

The problem I see is that we don't even have the players to pay a more direct style, and even if we did a direct style isnt something you can build on

We want to be better than that, but don't have the players to BE better than that, and I think it's a waste of time spending months on end playing one way if you intend to switch it to something else later down the line.

I'm not sure some people actually know what they want?

[NottsRam77]

22 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Good point, I've only quoted this part of the post but hope you don't think  I simply disregarded the rest.

For what it's worth you're not one of the posters I feel the need to rage against and I respect your opinion, it's generally a bit more balanced and considerative than,  well, quite a few even if we have a different perspective.

The problem I see is that we don't even have the players to pay a more direct style, and even if we did a direct style isnt something you can build on

We want to be better than that, but don't have the players to BE better than that, and I think it's a waste of time spending months on end playing one way if you intend to switch it to something else later down the line.

I'm not sure some people actually know what they want?

It’s a fair point buddy 

let’s not muck about cocu has had a horrible run of luck in terms of injuries and of course off the field antics for which I don’t appoint any blame to him whatsoever obviously 

There is also a time scale to consider .. Rome wasn’t built on a day and it sure as hell wasnt build in only one or two transfer windows 

I don’t think cocu has helped himself, I think a more experienced championship manager would have made more of what has been and is available to him.... but then the counter to that is that we’ve done the experienced championship manager in Pearson and that ended badly too so what do we do.

you can see I’m at logger heads with myself over how I feel about cocu 

my gut feeling is I don’t think this is going to work

the championship is like no other league.

For me there’s just been times where cocu has made some very bizarre decisions ... dowell and Huddlestone together middle of the park straight off the top of my head springs to mind 

ok, the argument is that it’s a learning curve for him too... but isn’t that why Leroy rosenior was brought in to advise that a midfield with no legs won’t last 5 minutes in the championship 

I’m not gunning for cocu but my patience is starting to v wear thin, all why I tell myself to be patient at the same time lol

Enjoy reading your posts as they’re always backed up by fair reason and logic so happy to share a difference of opinion and discuss our views ? 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

Interesting profile for cocu on the sackrace site....

75 to 1 to go to Barcelona next!

https://www.thesackrace.com/managerial-casualties

Also good for looking up other managers sacking odds etc.

 

[Ramtastic ones]

Cocu is doing what every previous manager has failed to do - tap into our academy resources. This will bring benefits in the future. His squad has also been plagued by injuries. Huddlestone, Clarke, Bielik and Marriott in and out, Shinnie, even Bogle. Add to that the fact that Lawerance works less than Nigel Callaghan did in an era when you could "carry" a winger and loan players - Paterson and Dowell that aren't cutting it. It's clear to see that many issues are outside his control. 

Stop the splash the cash approach that will ultimately end in FFP pain, give him time and accept sometimes you have to have a bed spell before it gets better. 

[sunnyhill60]

9 minutes ago, Ramtastic ones said:

Cocu is doing what every previous manager has failed to do - tap into our academy resources. This will bring benefits in the future. His squad has also been plagued by injuries. Huddlestone, Clarke, Bielik and Marriott in and out, Shinnie, even Bogle. Add to that the fact that Lawerance works less than Nigel Callaghan did in an era when you could "carry" a winger and loan players - Paterson and Dowell that aren't cutting it. It's clear to see that many issues are outside his control. 

Stop the splash the cash approach that will ultimately end in FFP pain, give him time and accept sometimes you have to have a bed spell before it gets better. 

So where did Bogle come from or Max Lowe? Max Lowe had a difficult start a couple of years ago and the decision to send on loan sevred both the player and the club very well.

Cocu is continuing what others have done but arguably has better acadamy resources to draw upon than his presdecessors

[Ramtastic ones]

Lowe has only come on the scene properly this year. Buchanan, Sibley, Knight, Bird and Whittacker are all being brought into the fold. That's six extra academy products plus Bogle. If Bogle and two other make it, thats several million in transfer fees saved and salary benefits two - we prob get all 7 for less than Chris Martin. 

[RoyMac5]

9 minutes ago, Ramtastic ones said:

If Bogle and two other make it, thats several million in transfer fees saved and salary benefits two - we prob get all 7 for less than Chris Martin. 

Not if they are any good and you want to keep them! Pay peanuts get monkeys.

[BondJovi]

24 minutes ago, sunnyhill60 said:

So where did Bogle come from or Max Lowe? Max Lowe had a difficult start a couple of years ago and the decision to send on loan sevred both the player and the club very well.

Cocu is continuing what others have done but arguably has better acadamy resources to draw upon than his presdecessors

We have the most minutes played so far of players under 21 in the league.

Max Lowe is one of a few academy players the loan has benefited. Plenty of others haven't.

That is the biggest difference this season, at least 5 of those academy players have a realistic chance of being in the first team squad. In part because they are better but also because the manager had chosen not to loan them out. 

Lampard picked Bogle but before that, who had any interest. Certainly not Rowett.

[Dimmu]

Just now, BondJovi said:

We have the most minutes played so far of players under 21 in the league.

Max Lowe is one of a few academy players the loan has benefited. Plenty of others haven't.

That is the biggest difference this season, at least 5 of those academy players have a realistic chance of being in the first team squad. In part because they are better but also because the manager had chosen not to loan them out. 

Lampard picked Bogle but before that, who had any interest. Certainly not Rowett.

Harsh on Rowett. He gave opportunity to Huddz, our own academy product. ?

[MikeS]

Bizarre. We need a long term manager now. OK,, we leave it until January 2021 before making a decision, as someone suggested on this thread. 

Well, sorry. We have had half a season with this management team. We have had no improvement or even roughly upholding of the standard. Indeed we have had mostly nothing but crap. The team has gone down in terms of belief, shape, set-up, organisation, and just what system are we trying to play? Let's please have a Plan A, and then a Plan B. The most concerning matter is that he shows no idea or promise that he knows what to do. Other managers would have got more out of this admittedly depleted squad. Not top 6, but not heading for the bottom three, as results and our performances currently suggest.

Long term? Give him until the new year. No change, ditch! I don't think the chairman will be far behind me.