Cocu in or out?

[DCFC27]

5 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

You think George Thorne, Dawkins, Jesse Lingard, Jordon Ibe, Tom Ince & Darren Bent were all on low wages? 

All value for money though weren’t they, only Thorne has been disappointing due to the injuries which you can’t legislate for. 

[May Contain Nuts]

46 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

37 goals in 105 games , I'd have a bit of that now. Would you honestly rather have Lawrence and Jozefzoon as options .  That's what the 10 million went on.

I'd rather have us try to perform as a team (even if it isn't working) than make one player the star of the show and making him look 5 times the player he actually is, forsaking all others. Classic short terminism at play.

I wouldn't have Ince and his 1 goal and 1 assist in the past 43 games anywhere near our current squad. He'd do absolutely duck all in the current Derby team, just as he's doing at Stoke.

Lawrence & Josefzoon being crap doesn't change that.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

2 minutes ago, Coconut said:

I'd rather have us try to perform as a team (even if it isn't working) than make one player the star of the show and making him look 5 times the player he actually is, forsaking all others. Classic short terminism at play.

I wouldn't have Ince and his 1 goal and 1 assist in the past 43 games anywhere near our current squad. He'd do absolutely duck all in the current Derby team, just as he's doing at Stoke.

He's better than any wide player we have.  I'd rather have a few players like him to keep us out the relegation places. Not sure that he was star of the show with the cash we spent while he was here. You can't make a player look five times better than he is. Based on that logic Wilsons free kicks made him look five times better than he was. 

[May Contain Nuts]

6 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

He's better than any wide player we have.  I'd rather have a few players like him to keep us out the relegation places. Not sure that he was star of the show with the cash we spent while he was here. You can't make a player look five times better than he is. Based on that logic Wilsons free kicks made him look five times better than he was. 

He isn't though, certainly not on current form. Is he keeping Stoke out of the relegation places? Are any of their other players benefitting from his existence? Nope and nope. The bloke's been found out for what he is.

Harry Wilson is a far better player than Tom Ince. Always was, always will be

[Sparkle]

5 minutes ago, Coconut said:

He isn't though, certainly not on current form. Is he keeping Stoke out of the relegation places? Are any of their other players benefitting from his existence? Nope and nope. The bloke's been found out for what he is.

Harry Wilson is a far better player than Tom Ince. Always was, always will be

Agree 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

Just now, Sparkle said:

Agree 

What a bag o poo.  Not fit too wash Jozefzoons undies. 

[Tyler Durden]

8 hours ago, atherstoneram said:

What a load of baalocks you spout. Tell me, what team of top performers did he inherit, 3 loanees returned to their patent clubs, older experienced players moving on and then consistent injuries. The team "he inherited" was nowhere near the team which finished last season.

This has to be the definition of a straw man argument - you've received about 9 likes from other posters for attacking me on an argument which I never progressed in the first place which you would have noticed if you'd read my post properly.

But as long as it furthers your agenda to progress an argument I never even made then that's the main thing I suppose and also shows how quick other posters are to jump on an argument which again was never postulated at all. 

I've seen posters moaning about the melt down and over reaction quote unquote on here after another away defeat on a Saturday evening, perhaps the same posters need to take a leaf out of their own books and not contribute to said meltdown by knee jerking replies without even taking time to  understand the true import of what has actually been posted.

[BriggRam]

4 hours ago, BondJovi said:

Don't let your love turn to hate?

Not hate mate just pissed off ?I went to bed after a 10-10 night shift wake up at 17.30 and see this result against ducking Reading.....after witnessing 1st hand against Millwall how we are playing it’s ducking worrying

[Jourdan]

3 hours ago, Coconut said:

Good post, even if I do think your expectations are far too optimistic for the reality of our situation.

Blackburn have Bradley Dack who's better than any of our current midfielders. Lewis Holtby, Sam Gallagher? I don't see them often enough to know for sure but I'd say they're at least level in quality? Swansea - Ayew, Van Der Hoorn, Routledge, Dyer? Probably all better than our respective players, yes. Preston - hmmm, dunno.

You look at a team like Milwall and even though they're a bit poo Jed Wallace would stroll into our team.

We've probably got some players who's individual talent (when they're playing well) is above that of those teams (although quite frankly looking at our squad, I wouldn't know who) but we don't have the right mix of players in the squad for them to form a cohesive unit playing any one particular style of football.

What I will say is... 

When a manager walks into a job with the full knowledge that the players he's taking on are limited, he's not going to have the resources to change it, the fans have no real expectations for 'attractive' football, he isn't tasked with bringing the youth through etc then he's got quite a simple job because there are few expectations placed upon him other than "get this lot performing to the best of their ability". Anything else is a bonus.

All some teams want is a short term fix and to be competing at the right end of the table for a change, with little ambition beyond that. there's no real eye to the future, the manager has a singular responsibility. That's the sort of job that suits Gary Rowett down to the ground, (a lot of) Birmingham fans were gutted he left. Milwall fans seem to love him, wheras  as despite relative success a lot of Derby fans became disillusioned because the football wasn't pretty enough.

Cocu has been given a wider reaching task than that, and while there may be other managers who achieve more with fewer resources, it's not in the same environment.

Of course, every team in this division will have one or two standout players but look at the overall squads, do the likes of Preston, Sheffield Wednesday, Swansea, Blackburn, Millwall, Forest, Cardiff and Birmingham strike fear into you?

If someone had asked you to predict the table after 23 games, would you have had all of those clubs above us in the table? I know I wouldn’t have.

All of these clubs are performing better and making better use of their resources than we are, and it is so disappointing to see.

Within a long term plan, you still draw a line between what’s acceptable and what’s not. 

Just because Cocu is ‘developing a team and a philosophy over 3-4 years’, it shouldn’t mean he can get away with absolutely anything. He needs to be held to a higher standard.

Surely even you have to admit we are underachieving. The bottom six are closing in. Two or three bad results and 17th in the table becomes 20th in the table and then we are very much in a relegation battle.

Long term plan or not, that is not good enough for a manager of Cocu’s pedigree and this squad.

[Archied]

3 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Of course, every team in this division will have one or two standout players but look at the overall squads, do the likes of Preston, Sheffield Wednesday, Swansea, Blackburn, Millwall, Forest, Cardiff and Birmingham strike fear into you?

If someone had asked you to predict the table after 23 games, would you have had all of those clubs above us in the table? I know I wouldn’t have.

All of these clubs are performing better and making better use of their resources than we are, and it is so disappointing to see.

Within a long term plan, you still draw a line between what’s acceptable and what’s not. 

Just because Cocu is ‘developing a team and a philosophy over 3-4 years’, it shouldn’t mean he can get away with absolutely anything. He needs to be held to a higher standard.

Surely even you have to admit we are underachieving. The bottom six are closing in. Two or three bad results and 17th in the table becomes 20th in the table and then we are very much in a relegation battle.

Long term plan or not, that is not good enough for a manager of Cocu’s pedigree and this squad.

Who’s our 1 or two stand out performers 

[IslandExile]

10 hours ago, Jourdan said:

 we should be 13-14th at worst.

Wow. We should get another manager in quickly. 17th just isn't good enough. We should be fighting for 14th, with lofty ambitions of 13th.

Never mind the need for a total rebuild and a manager/owner with a long term vision of sustainable success.

We want 14th this season. Anything else is a failure.

How very short sighted. Give me strength.

Just no point arguing anymore. As someone pointed out before the election: people no longer listen to facts or reasoned arguments. They make their mind up early and stick with it.

Yeah, yeah, ok we get it...a club like Derby, with its support, its heritage, no matter what the squad, the preseason, the captain's antics, the injuries, we shouldn't be looking to the future, we should be fighting to finish at least 14th this season dammit.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

I think alarm bells should have rang after the Preston game.

Preston were 2nd and Cocu stumbled upon a way to play well and beat them, I say stumbled because he is constantly proving that he isn't able to set us up tactically to beat teams.

After Preston fans were positive and we finally thought we had turned a corner, unfortunately Cocu had other ideas and completely changed the team, putting Bogle on the wing/bringing Dowell back etc etc.

I feel that you could give him Van Ginkel, Kerdioglu etc and he would still struggle to select a consistent 11.

My concern with Cocu is that he seems to be so desperate to try and find a way to get us winning and nothing seems to be working.  He has had so much bad luck, the players are clearly not playing for him and I feel so sorry for him.

As much as I dont want to sack Cocu and I am desperate for him to work, I honestly think if he stays we will get relegated, I just hope Mel and Philip sit down and decide it isn't working and they part ways by mutual consent, Phil gets himself a good job at a team that isn't full of idiots and we get Neil Warnock who comes in and slaps Tom Lawrence silly!

[Mucker1884]

Still in for me... but as a demonstration of my dismay at this point, I'm ditching the Oranje theme forthwith, and going back to the Black & White default mode!

Certain people at the club need to realise just how serious this is getting!

[Tyler Durden]

4 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Wow. We should get another manager in quickly. 17th just isn't good enough. We should be fighting for 14th, with lofty ambitions of 13th.

Never mind the need for a total rebuild and a manager/owner with a long term vision of sustainable success.

We want 14th this season. Anything else is a failure.

How very short sighted. Give me strength.

Just no point arguing anymore. As someone pointed out before the election: people no longer listen to facts or reasoned arguments. They make their mind up early and stick with it.

Yeah, yeah, ok we get it...a club like Derby, with its support, its heritage, no matter what the squad, the preseason, the captain's antics, the injuries, we shouldn't be looking to the future, we should be fighting to finish at least 14th this season dammit.

You're taking the OPs content out of context to further your own argument, the stated league position of 14th is totally nominal, it could be 13th or 12th, the point is that we should be realising a higher league position if Cocu was extracting acceptable levels of performance from the squad of players he has inherited. 

Totally concur with your point apropros about people not listening to reasoned arguments to show I'm not trying to jump on your reply, opinions seem to be totally polarised which is why I deliberately came off here last night as found the same 2 camps progressing their hackneyed opinions without having the insight to listen to other opinions boring and tedious again after another away defeat at the hands of Cocu. 

[IslandExile]

6 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

You're taking the OPs content out of context to further your own argument, the stated league position of 14th is totally nominal, it could be 13th or 12th, the point is that we should be realising a higher league position if Cocu was extracting acceptable levels of performance from the squad of players he has inherited. 

Totally concur with your point apropros about people not listening to reasoned arguments to show I'm not trying to jump on your reply, opinions seem to be totally polarised which is why I deliberately came off here last night as found the same 2 camps progressing their hackneyed opinions without having the insight to listen to other opinions boring and tedious again after another away defeat at the hands of Cocu. 

I confess I did take it a little out of context, which is unfair on the poster, but it seems to represent a generally held view that it matters more that we achieve a position just a few places above where we are now than prepare for the longer term.

We had a power cut last evening which saved me from myself. No internet, not even on my phone. I think the arguments, reasoned and otherwise, have now been made on both sides.

There is no point rehashing them, time and again, when folks are so entrenched in their viewpoints.

Let's move on, see what happens, enjoy the holidays and support our team ?

[Richard246]

 I Think we have to stick by him.

He needs this window and perhaps the summer to rebuild i think he will get more players in this window than just 2 or 3 i think we actually need 6.

Mel needs to back him and see what he can do with is own players.

Players who need to go are Waghorn ,Lawrence ,Holmes, Malone , Flo jo ,Dare i say Marriott and possibly Bogle in the summer.

[IslandExile]

Just seen the RamsTV interview with Cocu after the Reading game. Really fired up but also some interesting hints at a few things. Anyone reading between the lines?

Cannot remember the exact quote but something like: "we are now more united than ever... On and off the pitch" and "finally they see it".

[May Contain Nuts]

54 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

After Preston fans were positive and we finally thought we had turned a corner, unfortunately Cocu had other ideas and completely changed the team, putting Bogle on the wing/bringing Dowell back etc etc.

After Preston we played Fulham away. The only changes to the lineup were enforced - Shinnie out injured, Evans in. Bennett out injured, Waghorn in. Those changes matched the subs made against Preston 

I know our away performances are best blanked completely from memory, but it doesn't mean they didn't happen!

[RoyMac5]

6 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

Just seen the RamsTV interview with Cocu after the Reading game. Really fired up but also some interesting hints at a few things. Anyone reading between the lines?

Cannot remember the exact quote but something like: "we are now more united than ever... On and off the pitch" and "finally they see it".

See what? If they don't win some games they'll be relegated? 

[RoyMac5]

Just now, Coconut said:

After Preston we played Fulham away. The only changes to the lineup were enforced - Shinnie out injured, Evans in. Bennett out injured, Waghorn in. Those changes matched the subs made against Preston 

And that is 'the joke', if he'd wanted to try '5 at the back' then that was the game, not at home!