Cocu in or out?

[LB_DCFC]

26 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

Excuse making. We have been contenders for five seasons, not just last season with Mount & co! 
 

name the players that do not have quality 

Yes we have been competing, but in those seasons we had, at various times: Ince, Hughes, Vydra, Hendrick, Bryson, a fit Thorne, Mount, Wilson, Tomori,  even players like Weimann and Russell are a level above what we have in our squad currently (in terms of wingers at least), and the squad composition is very very very different to even 2 years ago, it's incomparable imo

And I wouldn't suggest It's excuses at all, it is where we are as a squad. I'd say the same for any manager that's here, and I'd suggest it'd be similar if any manager of those years competing was here now.

Going through the team:

Hamer is a below average champ goalkeeper

Bogle is good. Curt cannot pass a ball, and is a level below where he was pre injury. Now a old, below average champ centre half. Forsyth has been out for a year and isnt a centre half. Lowe is good

I really like knight, but he's currently at best an average champ midfielder who has off days due to his youth. Bielik is good. Holmes i like, he's a good ball carrier, but isn't that incisive in terms of passing and therefore chance creation, so in terms of him carrying the team in terms of creativity, he's average. 

Waggy is again average, Lawrence is, well, you know and Martin is good when the team is completely clicking, which it isn't at the moment.

This is probably our best team at the moment, which isn't well balanced, has a huge GK problem, doesn't have any wingers of any quality at all, has a centre half paring that can't pass a ball, no real creative midfielder and has strikers not scoring chances. It's not just the players, it's the combination of the players in the side that contribute to it's lack of quality. 

 

[BondJovi]

19 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

Excuse making. We have been contenders for five seasons, not just last season with Mount & co! 
 

name the players that do not have quality 

Who is still here from the Rowett season?

[atherstoneram]

39 minutes ago, Shaftesbury st said:

I am confused why people want to blindly walk down this path with Cocu just because we have sacked a few managers previously. 
if we have the wrong man we have the wrong man.

Personally I just don’t see any development here, Malone and Lowe swapping and changing every week, systems changing, late to change things when it’s going wrong. 

whilst I’m not calling for his head I don’t see him taking us forward 

I have to disagree, i can see Cocu taking us forward, he never had a pre-season, for the 1st 4 to 6 weeks of the season he was getting used to the players,what they were/are capable of and the system he wants to play, then it just gets worse, injuries, losing Keogh, etc.

 To me there is a reason he chops and changes Malone and Lowe, to see if either are developing, my thoughts one or both will be gone in Jan or at the end of the season.When they made mistakes at LB last season we had Tomori who, with his pace and tackling covered up their mistakes, they don't have that security back up this season and have been found wanting. 

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Mostyn6 said:

Why do you keep mentioning a lack of quality? Which player(s) in this previously successful and once entertaining team do you now think lacks the talent to repeat their previous displays of quality?

If you're talking about the individual players and their individual performances then those can be  massively influenced by the players they're playing with / surrounded by. You've got to have the right people to pass to / receive a pass from, you've got to have the a player moving into space to pass it to when you've got it. You need a reliable option to lay it of to when you can't make progress yourself.

The 3 loan players we had last season excelled in this area, they helped the team flow far better. Add Keogh to that too.. and even them we were crap sometimes.

Harry Wilson & Mason Mount got 29 goals between them last season. Tomori was mostly excellent. These players carried the team at times. The only player we've got in the team who's ever even scored 15 or more goals in a Championship season is Chris Martin, and he hasn't been the player he was since 2016/17.

Sometimes having players of such undeniable quality can drag the rest of the team up with them. I doubt Wolves would have gone up without Jota & Nevez, for example.

You've mentioned being an entertaining team, but that's just it - the balance has to be right. You're not allowing for how awful we were when even one of those players was missing, not just poor results but clueless performances. We were awful at times even when they all player.

Show me a run of games where we've been successful and entertaining with Curtis Davies & Craig Forsyth as the CBs and I might agree with you. Point out two games other than a cup match at home to Southampton when we played well without either Mount or Wilson and I might agree with you.

 

37 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

One minute we are missing the players (injured) which will sort us out, then when we are still struggling, its a lack of quality! 

What? We're still missing the injured players (which have returned to full fitness?) and we still lack quality, even when they do return!

Our squad when fully fit is a mid table squad. Our squad when decimated by injury is...

[BondJovi]

3 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

We are sleepwalking towards relegation at the minute.

There are so many factors that have worked against Cocu so far this season, as we have all noted. But a share of the blame of course lies at his door.

It is in this run of games now that things have to and had to improve. We started that run with a three nil defeat. This is not good enough.

Things need to change and fast because this is getting worrying now. 

We have two more matches before the window opens. Players come back from injury and Rooney can play not to mention who might come in.

Will those two matches make or break this season?

[TramRam]

1 hour ago, Mostyn6 said:

Why do you keep mentioning a lack of quality? Which player(s) in this previously successful and once entertaining team do you now think lacks the talent to repeat their previous displays of quality?

 

Team..................................Team

Play off Final...................Reading

 

Roos..............................Hamer

Bogle................................Bogle

Keogh..............................Davies

Tomori.............................Forsyth

Cole.................................Malone

Mount............................Holmes

Huddlestone...............Bielik

Johnson.....................Knight

Wilson.......................Waghorn

Lawrence...................Lawrence

Bennett.....................Martin

Jozefzoon.................Sibley

Waghorn...............Lowe

Marriott....................Marriott

Looking at this the team has changed for the worse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[May Contain Nuts]

18 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

We are sleepwalking towards relegation at the minute.

There are so many factors that have worked against Cocu so far this season, as we have all noted. But a share of the blame of course lies at his door.

It is in this run of games now that things have to and had to improve. We started that run with a three nil defeat. This is not good enough.

Things need to change and fast because this is getting worrying now. 

Not worried in the slightest tbh

It's mid Jan/February - April that things need to improve, when we have a few players back from injury, Rooney, and a couple of signings.

Until then we're still working with the same poo we've had to work for the past 3 months, so I'm not judging anything.

 

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Barnetbyram said:

It’s getting harder and harder to keep the faith

Ok, @BondJovi, have a word with this dude would ya?

[Nuwtfly]

2 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Not worried in the slightest tbh

It's mid Jan/February - April that things need to improve, when we have a few players back from injury, Rooney, and a couple of signings.

Until then we're still working with the same poo we've had to work for the past 3 months, so I'm not judging anything.

 

Good thing we've got a history of good form over that period...right?

I think fans expecting January to change everything are way too optimistic. Cocu said we might bring one or two in. We need five or six by the look of things. And what money is there to spend? How do we do the business we need without getting into FFP trouble?

I don't want to sound negative and I know I do. I'm still Cocu In. I'm just getting very, very nervous.

[BondJovi]

3 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Ok, @BondJovi, have a word with this dude would ya?

Don't let your love turn to hate?

[May Contain Nuts]

Just now, Nuwtfly said:

Good thing we've got a history of good form over that period...right?

I think fans expecting January to change everything are way too optimistic. Cocu said we might bring one or two in. We need five or six by the look of things. And what money is there to spend? How do we do the business we need without getting into FFP trouble?

I don't want to sound negative and I know I do. I'm still Cocu In. I'm just getting very, very nervous.

I'm not expecting January to change everything, just enough to halt the disastrous current form and to let us begin to set a few more solid foundations.

 

[atherstoneram]

1 minute ago, Nuwtfly said:

Good thing we've got a history of good form over that period...right?

I think fans expecting January to change everything are way too optimistic. Cocu said we might bring one or two in. We need five or six by the look of things. And what money is there to spend? How do we do the business we need without getting into FFP trouble?

I don't want to sound negative and I know I do. I'm still Cocu In. I'm just getting very, very nervous.

God knows how you would be feeling then if you were a Stoke fan ?

[LeedsCityRam]

48 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

It’s a difficult question to answer.

Preston are currently 4th. Swansea are 6th. Blackburn are 10th.

Do we have less quality in our squad than those teams, even now?

The Championship is a crazy league where an ordinary looking team can go a long way. A good manager or a good run of form can make a difference.

I think we are a top 10 side on balance. The right manager could make us more consistent and more positive and take us higher (5-6th) and the wrong manager could take us lower, as we are seeing with Cocu.

Taking into account the circumstances and Cocu’s lack of experience in the division, we should be 13-14th at worst.

Even Clough could manage 10-12th in this division with a lack of resources and poor players like Sammon and Theo Robinson spearheading his attack.

Whatever way you dress it up, 17th is a long way from most people’s expectations.

I think we're in agreement on 13/14th. Before the season started, Id have said 8th/9th after losing the loan players. In the aftermath of the Keogh saga, my expectations have been revised downwards.

FWIW I dont believe we'll finish 17th...I suspect circa 12th (so not far from your top 10). I'd take that.

[Nuwtfly]

4 minutes ago, atherstoneram said:

God knows how you would be feeling then if you were a Stoke fan ?

Something like this I'd of thought...

[May Contain Nuts]

9 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Something like this I'd of thought...

I'd be bloody delighted to be a Stoke fan with a player like Tom Ince in my side, who is, to quote Steve McClaren "Guaranteed 15 goals a season, and about as many assists!"

With a player like that they must be flying! Too good for The Championship our Tom.

Bloody hell, people actually thought he was on a par with Harry Wilson. haha.
Aaaanyway, back on topic...

[MackworthRamIsGod]

My concern is, Cocu has said he potentially wants to sign players he has worked with previously, question is, would they want to?

Partly due to our league position being so poor. Cocu has only worked with good players, they would hardly want to come fight a relegation battle in the 2nd division of English football.

The other thing is, did the players he worked with previously enjoy his football? His time at Fenerbache was a disaster so I csnt see him getting any from there.  

I cannot see the start of Jan being full of hope, but it quickly turning into a disaster like most Januarys.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

2 minutes ago, Coconut said:

I'd be bloody delighted to be a Stoke fan with a player like Tom Ince in my side, who is, to quote Steve McClaren "Guaranteed 15 goals a season, and about as many assists!"

With a player like that they must be flying! Too good for The Championship our Tom.

Bloody hell, people actually thought he was on a par with Harry Wilson. haha.
Aaaanyway, back on topic...

My mate is a Stooe fan and told me this week that Tom Ince is absolutely shocking for them.

I wouldn't mind swapping him with Tom Lawrence though.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

6 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Impossible

I'd be bloody delighted to be a Stoke fan with a player like Tom Ince in my side, who is, to quote Steve McClaren "Guaranteed 15 goals a season, and about as many assists!"

With a player like that they must be flying! Too good for The Championship our Tom.

Bloody hell, people actually thought he was on a par with Harry Wilson. haha

37 goals in 105 games , I'd have a bit of that now. Would you honestly rather have Lawrence and Jozefzoon as options .  That's what the 10 million went on.

[kingsy1884]

He has to have more time this team is a Frankenstein selection of several managers players.

I am actually interested to see who he can bring in during Jan now he has had some proper time to see the team. Dowell, Paterson and Hamer were poor transfer that suggested a 'they will have to do' but Bielik and Clarke have been good just injury prone. 

I am pretty hopeful things will improve we are pretty clear of the relegation zone too.  

 

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

It’s a difficult question to answer.

Preston are currently 4th. Swansea are 6th. Blackburn are 10th.

Do we have less quality in our squad than those teams, even now?

The Championship is a crazy league where an ordinary looking team can go a long way. A good manager or a good run of form can make a difference.

I think we are a top 10 side on balance. The right manager could make us more consistent and more positive and take us higher (5-6th) and the wrong manager could take us lower, as we are seeing with Cocu.

Taking into account the circumstances and Cocu’s lack of experience in the division, we should be 13-14th at worst.

Even Clough could manage 10-12th in this division with a lack of resources and poor players like Sammon and Theo Robinson spearheading his attack.

Whatever way you dress it up, 17th is a long way from most people’s expectations.

Good post, even if I do think your expectations are far too optimistic for the reality of our situation.

Blackburn have Bradley Dack who's better than any of our current midfielders. Lewis Holtby, Sam Gallagher? I don't see them often enough to know for sure but I'd say they're at least level in quality? Swansea - Ayew, Van Der Hoorn, Routledge, Dyer? Probably all better than our respective players, yes. Preston - hmmm, dunno.

You look at a team like Milwall and even though they're a bit poo Jed Wallace would stroll into our team.

We've probably got some players who's individual talent (when they're playing well) is above that of those teams (although quite frankly looking at our squad, I wouldn't know who) but we don't have the right mix of players in the squad for them to form a cohesive unit playing any one particular style of football.

What I will say is... 

When a manager walks into a job with the full knowledge that the players he's taking on are limited, he's not going to have the resources to change it, the fans have no real expectations for 'attractive' football, he isn't tasked with bringing the youth through etc then he's got quite a simple job because there are few expectations placed upon him other than "get this lot performing to the best of their ability". Anything else is a bonus.

All some teams want is a short term fix and to be competing at the right end of the table for a change, with little ambition beyond that. there's no real eye to the future, the manager has a singular responsibility. That's the sort of job that suits Gary Rowett down to the ground, (a lot of) Birmingham fans were gutted he left. Milwall fans seem to love him, wheras  as despite relative success a lot of Derby fans became disillusioned because the football wasn't pretty enough.

Cocu has been given a wider reaching task than that, and while there may be other managers who achieve more with fewer resources, it's not in the same environment.