Hull City (A) Match Thread

[angieram]

Thank you for your very kind words, @Half fan @Ellafella @reverendo de duivel. I post my usual post-match ramblings as a way of rationalising what I have just witnessed. I find it very therapeutic. 

That anyone enjoys reading it ( as opposed to tolerating it or scrolling through it) always takes me rather by surprise. 

[Inverurie Ram]

7 hours ago, angieram said:

Where's the matchday thread gone?

I think some fans need to learn how to handle their disappointments a little better - the body language, other language and trooping out immediately after the second goal went in yesterday was so pitiful it made me laugh. 

I thought the first half was our most cohesive away half of the season so far, apart from the end product, where I would rate Huddersfield higher. Interesting that Dowell, who apparently does nothing, was part of those two performances.  For me, he is one of those players who helps the flow of the game, gets the midfield closer to the front line, without necessarily being spectacular. Bielik played really well, Holmes' touch is gradually coming back and Bogle is regaining energy going forward.

I was disappointed as usual with the end product, though how Hull kept the ball out of the net at the end of the half I don't know! I haven't seen it back yet as Quest chose not to show it as it didn't suit their narrative of Hull being the better team.

The beginning of the second half brought the goal that our play had deserved, and I still think that it was a good one. Lawrence had looked really bright and worked hard but his end product was poor, so an unexpected goal from a great bit of determination would have really boosted his confidence.  Unfortunately the referee,  who had done little to address Hull's persistent physicality against us, had other thoughts. Interesting that the Birmingham goal showed immediately before our game on Quest was a much more blatant foul than Lawrence's yet was given and not even deemed worthy of a mention. 

That one decision seemed to completely knock the stuffing out of us, so fragile is our confidence at the moment. 

Bogle, for me, was at fault for both Hull's goals. We don't have Keogh,  Huddlestone or Johnson, who all at times covered for his marauding up the pitch last season, and Bielik is not aware or quick enough to drop in when he does so. I like Bogle's enterprise going forward but he is primarily a full back who is doing very little defending. More of that later. 

Lowe couldn't get up to the cross (I don't think Malone would have done any better) and we are behind again. The noise from the Hull fans, who are usually pussycats rather than tigers, said it all. They were very relieved as they had been second best up to this point.

I thought Cocu's reaction to the goal was odd, bringing on Whitaker instead of Marriott while Martin was still on the pitch. It didn't really work and just felt for me like it was Whitaker's 'turn'. I now think we're destined never to see Marriott and Martin get a regular run on the pitch together,  what a shame. 

A second goal was threatening to come as our heads went down once again and it didn't take long. Game over. I don't think we had a real threat after that and I can't recall Marriott or Waghorn doing anything of note when the former did belatedly arrive on the pitch. If that guy isn't fit for 90 minutes at least play him from the start while we are still in the game rather than bringing him on at 80 minutes to chase lost causes! 

What caused our demise in the second half? Bielik ran out of legs (that guy needs to seriously work on his fitness), Holmes and Bogle too but in their cases they are working their way back from injury. Dowell also faded badly as was to be expected after such a long time out of the first team. All those could have been anticipated pre-match but we didn't seem prepared for it and I feel bringing on three forward players when we desperately needed extra legs in midfield was a mistake. Along with Marriott, Knight or Paterson were the subs for me but neither were in the squad.

So, the most frustrating thing for me about yesterday is that we lost a game which was clearly there for the taking. A combination of poor fitness, poor refereeing and poor tactics seemed to snatch it away from us. It's really disappointing and hard to look at the bigger picture in the middle of that disappointment. Hence this thread turning into yet another discussion about Cocu.

My take on that? I'd give him time, but in exchange for doing so I would be expecting him to try something different in the way he sets up the team rather than making the same mistakes game after game. I am really conservative when it comes to formations but I don't think we have the quality or speed in the defence now Keogh is out to persist with Bogle in a flat back four. 

So, either bring in a proper full back (Wisdom) or preferably go for a back three (utilising Wisdom or Forsyth) with Bogle and Lowe as wingbacks. An added bonus of the latter is we could then play Martin with Marriott up top and I'd be happy! 

If it doesn't work, then Cocu could turn round and tell us all he knew it never would - but at least we'd know. We aren't winning these games anyway so surely it's worth the risk?

I put the quality of this post down to a mixture of your good Saturday lie in, getting all the housework done before leaving to Hull and that fine Yorkshire fresh air and drizzle to wake you up for the game before our team kept you awake at least, but then zapped you of all your energy, before a depressing drive home in the dark, realising Winter has landed, the shops are already full of a load of Halloween plastic nonesence eating in the ozone and all the rest and the garden centres are already well stocked up to the brims with over priced Christmas tack but all you want in life, other than close ones to be fit and healthy, and full of life, is your beloved football team, to just perform to the best of it's ability, as to not ruin a good Saturday evening and a Sunday morning at least to follow.

But then again, next game is just around the corner and we all get to relive, the despair, the hope and sometimes that joyful glory!

Hope your Sunday lie in and Sunday Roast Home performance was better than Derby's current performances home or away.

[TramRam]

5 hours ago, Ilsonram12 said:

I see a lot of wait till January,  do we have any funds for January? Can't see cocu being given what lampard had last season, lot been spent on bielik already

My bet is what Morris said about bringing through the academy etc is the way forward

I have to be honest here, I'm not a full shilling where FFP is concerned, So, Did we get to keep all the playoff gate receipts at Wembley?, There was an agreement(not set in stone)that the losers kept all the money, Plus the compensation we got from Chelsea for Lampard and co must be in the region of 3-4 million £s.

This money would have paid for Bielik or does the loot go into season 20-21.

 

 

[Bob The Badger]

10 hours ago, Ellafella said:

No. I’ve been watching for 45 years. So it’s not Cocu’s fault...they’re not his players. Glad we’ve cleared that one up. So that’s it then. Let’s just keep losing games playing players who look like a group of shabby footballers who don’t seem to know what they’re about who are happy to be 2nd rate. 

The point I was making is that people will moan just as much no matter who's playing if we keep struggling. 

[Ellafella]

1 hour ago, Bob The Badger said:

The point I was making is that people will moan just as much no matter who's playing if we keep struggling. 

Possibly. But fewer will moan if they see some green shoots of development or some semblance of a pattern developing. 

[Premier ram]

13 hours ago, angieram said:

Where's the matchday thread gone?

I think some fans need to learn how to handle their disappointments a little better - the body language, other language and trooping out immediately after the second goal went in yesterday was so pitiful it made me laugh. 

I thought the first half was our most cohesive away half of the season so far, apart from the end product, where I would rate Huddersfield higher. Interesting that Dowell, who apparently does nothing, was part of those two performances.  For me, he is one of those players who helps the flow of the game, gets the midfield closer to the front line, without necessarily being spectacular. Bielik played really well, Holmes' touch is gradually coming back and Bogle is regaining energy going forward.

I was disappointed as usual with the end product, though how Hull kept the ball out of the net at the end of the half I don't know! I haven't seen it back yet as Quest chose not to show it as it didn't suit their narrative of Hull being the better team.

The beginning of the second half brought the goal that our play had deserved, and I still think that it was a good one. Lawrence had looked really bright and worked hard but his end product was poor, so an unexpected goal from a great bit of determination would have really boosted his confidence.  Unfortunately the referee,  who had done little to address Hull's persistent physicality against us, had other thoughts. Interesting that the Birmingham goal showed immediately before our game on Quest was a much more blatant foul than Lawrence's yet was given and not even deemed worthy of a mention. 

That one decision seemed to completely knock the stuffing out of us, so fragile is our confidence at the moment. 

Bogle, for me, was at fault for both Hull's goals. We don't have Keogh,  Huddlestone or Johnson, who all at times covered for his marauding up the pitch last season, and Bielik is not aware or quick enough to drop in when he does so. I like Bogle's enterprise going forward but he is primarily a full back who is doing very little defending. More of that later. 

Lowe couldn't get up to the cross (I don't think Malone would have done any better) and we are behind again. The noise from the Hull fans, who are usually pussycats rather than tigers, said it all. They were very relieved as they had been second best up to this point.

I thought Cocu's reaction to the goal was odd, bringing on Whitaker instead of Marriott while Martin was still on the pitch. It didn't really work and just felt for me like it was Whitaker's 'turn'. I now think we're destined never to see Marriott and Martin get a regular run on the pitch together,  what a shame. 

A second goal was threatening to come as our heads went down once again and it didn't take long. Game over. I don't think we had a real threat after that and I can't recall Marriott or Waghorn doing anything of note when the former did belatedly arrive on the pitch. If that guy isn't fit for 90 minutes at least play him from the start while we are still in the game rather than bringing him on at 80 minutes to chase lost causes! 

What caused our demise in the second half? Bielik ran out of legs (that guy needs to seriously work on his fitness), Holmes and Bogle too but in their cases they are working their way back from injury. Dowell also faded badly as was to be expected after such a long time out of the first team. All those could have been anticipated pre-match but we didn't seem prepared for it and I feel bringing on three forward players when we desperately needed extra legs in midfield was a mistake. Along with Marriott, Knight or Paterson were the subs for me but neither were in the squad.

So, the most frustrating thing for me about yesterday is that we lost a game which was clearly there for the taking. A combination of poor fitness, poor refereeing and poor tactics seemed to snatch it away from us. It's really disappointing and hard to look at the bigger picture in the middle of that disappointment. Hence this thread turning into yet another discussion about Cocu.

My take on that? I'd give him time, but in exchange for doing so I would be expecting him to try something different in the way he sets up the team rather than making the same mistakes game after game. I am really conservative when it comes to formations but I don't think we have the quality or speed in the defence now Keogh is out to persist with Bogle in a flat back four. 

So, either bring in a proper full back (Wisdom) or preferably go for a back three (utilising Wisdom or Forsyth) with Bogle and Lowe as wingbacks. An added bonus of the latter is we could then play Martin with Marriott up top and I'd be happy! 

If it doesn't work, then Cocu could turn round and tell us all he knew it never would - but at least we'd know. We aren't winning these games anyway so surely it's worth the risk?

Thank God for you angieram, i thought i had imagined that 90 mins at Hull yesterday after reading some of the posts on here , your points are absolutely spot on , those Derby fans walkiing out yesterday and on Wednesday need a reality check , we are a very slow work in progress and i feel maybe a couple of signings in Jan , a formation change or a monstrous bit of luck could change our whole season , stick with Cocu , support the players and lets get through this stop /go start to the season

[europia]

18 hours ago, Jourdan said:

Can you imagine what it'll be like 6-10 games from now if we are still losing every other week away from home and still putting in lame performances?

Unfortunately those are the results / performances you have to expect from a very average squad of players. 

[IslandExile]

I don't get to many games nowadays but I managed to go to the Hull game.

Whether the naysayers like it or not, Derby were very much the better side in the first half. Hull relied on their two fast wingers for breakaways - at home!!

In the second half as others have said, Bielik and Dowell, maybe others, tired and it was more even. Nevertheless, it could still have gone either way. I have no idea why Lawrence's goal was disallowed, even after watching it again.

We've all seen games where one side dominates and the other side nicks it. That's exactly what happened.

Hull had a half price promotion that doubled their attendance but, sitting with Hull friends in the main stand, all we could hear were the supportive Derby fans; the home crowd were silenced by the way the game was going and only came alive once they'd scored.

My final point is about the criticism of Cocu. It's crazy. The suggestion that Pullis be given the job until the end of the season is beyond belief.

At the start of the season, everyone was thrilled at his appointment. Everyone understood that he had no preseason, no chance to replace the best three players from last season. We've since lost the one defender who can bring the ball out from the back.

But now, lose a few games and so many are calling for him to be replaced. It's crazy. Give the guy a chance fer heaven's sake.

This is a long term project. The academy is key. Wassall praises the interest and support from Cocu. The kids will come through. But you cannot just throw them all in, especially when results are not going so well and, moreover, especially when large sections of the supporters have so little patience.

So the kids have to be introduced incrementally, the occasional substitute appearance for example. But look at the criticism for bringing Whittaker, a player in great form, yesterday.

Many supporters haven't forgiven Cocu for playing youngsters in the Mickey Mouse cup, probably because it was against Forest.

But look at the bigger picture.

We want promotion - of course - but we want to build an infrastructure within the club, academy etc, that makes success sustainable.

We do not want a Billy Davies, Warnock promotion, instantly followed by relegation. And we, sure as hell, don't want to watch football styled in the image of Pullis, sorry Tony.

Sheesh.

Support Cocu. Support the players, especially the kids. Be patient. Let Cocu experiment. Let the kids gain experience. Results don't matter this season. We're not going to get promoted, be realistic, but - despite the frenzied panic - we won't get relegated.

Think long term. Cocu is absolutely the best manager we could have.

Get a grip.

[IslandExile]

Footnote:

Bielik in the first half played really well.

I didn't want Dowell to play but he was good in the first half, unbelievable pass to Lawrence.

Lawrence was nowhere near as bad as some claim. There is now a 'sheep' mentality in the criticism of Lawrence and Roos. Though things didn't come off for him, in the end, there was an anticipation that something might whenever he or Holmes had the ball. They were our main threat.

We do need Martin and Marriott together. Cocu has to try 352 or 442.

I love Davies's commitment but he gave the ball away too many times, by poor passes, in very dangerous situations. We desperately need central defenders who can both defend and play.

Finally, Roos made one mistake, an iffy punch, but it didn't come to anything. Again, the sarcastic cheers aren't warranted. Too many sheep amongst our supporters and not enough Rams.

[Bubbles]

Tell ye what lads, Tommy Lawrence has been twice as good as he was before the crash, he's gettin stuck in a lot more and was unlucky not to be given the goal on saturday....

[Edtheram]

Im questioning everything at the minute, things were better Saturday but no improvement on the big issues letting us down.

If we lose to Boro and Forest it could get messy.

[Bubbles]

9 minutes ago, Edtheram said:

Im questioning everything at the minute, things were better Saturday but no improvement on the big issues letting us down.

If we lose to Boro and Forest it could get messy.

Thing is, the Hull performance wasnt even that crappy, First half we bossed them, 2nd when Dowell came off thats when we fell apart, if we can keep up a performance like the first half, for 90 minutes, we'll be fine, aslong as we have marriott/martin up top.

[Spanish]

27 minutes ago, Edtheram said:

Im questioning everything at the minute, things were better Saturday but no improvement on the big issues letting us down.

If we lose to Boro and Forest it could get messy.

so by 'messy' are you saying you will want him sacked? 

I'm not sure what those that want him sacked expect really.  Expect top 6 unrealistic. Avoid threat of relegation, well I can see a point to the concern but sacking him won't guarantee anything other than another change and paying out settlements.   Picking up on another comment made by a clever poster, time to be a ram not a sheep.. I have my doubts but he hasn't exactly been dealt a fair hand has he?

[Edtheram]

33 minutes ago, Spanish said:

so by 'messy' are you saying you will want him sacked? 

I'm not sure what those that want him sacked expect really.  Expect top 6 unrealistic. Avoid threat of relegation, well I can see a point to the concern but sacking him won't guarantee anything other than another change and paying out settlements.   Picking up on another comment made by a clever poster, time to be a ram not a sheep.. I have my doubts but he hasn't exactly been dealt a fair hand has he?

Not saying sacked but the fans will grow restless - 14 games in now we need to be better in my opinion, too many excuses being thrown about.

24,000 there Tuesday, fans will vote with there feet, if we drop even lower in the table it could drop to 20k/22k. 

Last season people came because it was exciting to watch this season ive got to say its quite boring.

[SaintRam]

23 hours ago, Half fan said:

And beautifully written - a quality which in these days of text messages and othe social media rubbish (including this forum sometimes) is sadly overlooked.

U wot m8

[Ghost of Clough]

4 minutes ago, Edtheram said:

Not saying sacked but the fans will grow restless - 14 games in now we need to be better in my opinion, too many excuses being thrown about.

24,000 there Tuesday, fans will vote with there feet, if we drop even lower in the table it could drop to 20k/22k. 

Last season people came because it was exciting to watch this season ive got to say its quite boring.

We always seem to get 24-25k for midweek games.

We're 7th in the form table (6 games), just 2 points behind the current form team (Huddersfield).

[Spanish]

20 minutes ago, Edtheram said:

Not saying sacked but the fans will grow restless - 14 games in now we need to be better in my opinion, too many excuses being thrown about.

24,000 there Tuesday, fans will vote with there feet, if we drop even lower in the table it could drop to 20k/22k. 

Last season people came because it was exciting to watch this season ive got to say its quite boring.

some will say good riddance to the sheep.

I think PC has more support that say GR but it does look like the problems of results are better than the performances which was the main criticism of GR.  Currently can't see that our Nov/Dec results will match those under GR though

[NottsRam77]

On 27/10/2019 at 07:51, blackNwhites said:

Cocu has a 'philosophy' (I hate it when he says that) and, whilst it is very apparent we don't have the players that perfectly fit that 'philosophy', you can clearly see what he's trying to do.

There was a moment in the early doors of the second half yesterday where we were passing down the left, and there was some lovely intricate, fast one touch passing going on that just sort of fell apart unfortunately because the players are still fine tuning themselves to that style. That's what's happening to us at the moment, lots of promising things that fizzle out at the crucial moments.

Cocu seems to be well liked by the players, so do his Dutch assistants. They appear to me to be great man managers, they're coaching the players to learn new tricks.

For example, Dowell probably looked the best he's looked at Derby since he arrived. I doubt he's got much of a future here because it'll take too much work, but he's definitely learning whilst here. Shinnie looks miles better than he did against Scunthorpe. Bielik is growing in stature. He looked completely different yesterday in the first half, he had confidence and was covering the whole midfield. He fell away in the second half because he was exhausted. He's covering for the midfield and defence.

Defence looks terrible though, we need significant improvement there.

I doubt Cocu had anything to do with any transfers this summer, his input may have been we need this, this and this. The best that was available was presented and he's had to take it on the chin. He's not going to have known anything about Paterson, Clarke, Hamer or Dowell is he? Maybe Bielik? I also doubt we spent £8-10m on Bielik, more like £2.5m?

It's gonna be frustrating this year, but again, I'm confident we'll see steady improvement on the playing side and hopefully January we'll cover the defence area and maybe add a winger. We're not finishing top 6 this season. Not with the players we've lost.

 

Again a great post mate 

Iv liked this one lol 

joking aside though would love to sit down with a beer and chew the fat with someone like yourself 

I hope cocu is as inspiring in the dressing room as ur are at posting 

a very thoughtful and intelligent post 

uv got me believing again 

cheers for that I needed a pep up lol 

[Tamworthram]

6 hours ago, Edtheram said:

Not saying sacked but the fans will grow restless - 14 games in now we need to be better in my opinion, too many excuses being thrown about.

24,000 there Tuesday, fans will vote with there feet, if we drop even lower in the table it could drop to 20k/22k. 

Last season people came because it was exciting to watch this season ive got to say its quite boring.

Last season: Wednesday 3rd October at home v Norwich - attendance 24,236 (league position at the time:8th)

                     Wednesday 20th February at home v Millwall - attendance 24,907 (league position at the time: 7th)

                     Tuesday 5th March at home v Wigan - attendance 23,655 (league position at the time: 7th)

A bit early to be worrying about attendances.

[Sean]

7 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

We always seem to get 24-25k for midweek games.

We're 7th in the form table (6 games), just 2 points behind the current form team (Huddersfield).

The fact that HUDDERSFIELD TOWN are the current in form side tells you everything you need to know about this season's Championship. What a strange season.