Luton Town (H) Match Thread

[ThePrisoner]

[ColonelBlimp]

37 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Ok......What is Cocu trying do? 

Trying to play it out from the back.

Trying to keep posession to work openings.

If the openings are not created then you have to pass back to work it forward again.

The openings are not created when movement is poor and no options are available to the ball carrier.

It's down to our MF/F and wide men to give options by creating space.

[RadioactiveWaste]

We could be dominantly ripping a team to shreds and the first misplaced or safe option pass would get groans.

IT'S SUPPOSED TO FUN. Since i started going to matches in 2000 it's been mostly dross (bar Burley, Billy and most of the last 5-6 seasons) 2nd division football. But the team getting going and looking to win the match, or at least try to should always be cheered. I don't think it's just Derby fans, I think it happens a lot of places, but I think some of our fans got the idea that anything other than Mac1 glorious cavalry charge football was simply "not good enough" for them. I also think some of the fans suffer from "loving the team too much, wanting them to do well so hard and so passionately" that frustration boils over when it's being reflected. I don't think the groans boos come from those who don't care.

OK, the team isn't what it was, I could see that at the Rangers friendly. We're a championship team, a bit disappointing this season, hardly the end of the world.

However, I'm someone who for money and distance get to 5-6 games a season, so my take is just my take.

[FindernRam]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

We are too deep, and we do spend too much time going backwards. 

There are numerous ocasions when we finally worked the ball into an advanced position, either to a full back or a winger, only for it to be immediately smacked straight back. No attempt to hold the ball or continue the attack or a win a throw or a corner. sometimes within two touches it was back with roos or the centre backs.  Of course the crowd got frustrated. 

Besides only two shots, we also won only one corner. 

Heres an alternative view on this: in second half there was yet another frustrating period of short passes sideway and back, at the end of which Malone passed 40 yards back to Roos. There were very audible groans at that point. I don't think at Malone particularly, just the style of play. Immediately after that Malone came near Cocu who made very obvious clapping to him. 

Its pretty clear to me that Cocu wants possession in preference to attacking entertainment. Will the crowd put up with it? We haven't under several managers and Mel always appears to rate entertainment highly.

[FindernRam]

5 minutes ago, ColonelBlimp said:

Trying to play it out from the back.

Trying to keep posession to work openings.

If the openings are not created then you have to pass back to work it forward again.

The openings are not created when movement is poor and no options are available to the ball carrier.

It's down to our MF/F and wide men to give options by creating space.

Which after about 20 minutes they stopped doing.

[Millenniumram]

15 minutes ago, ThePrisoner said:

Best bank in a football ground since @DarkFruitsRam7 at Hillsborough 

[Anag Ram]

26 minutes ago, ColonelBlimp said:

Trying to play it out from the back.

Trying to keep posession to work openings.

If the openings are not created then you have to pass back to work it forward again.

The openings are not created when movement is poor and no options are available to the ball carrier.

It's down to our MF/F and wide men to give options by creating space.

Also, when we get the ball near the box, we have a static line of Derby players, each flanked by a defender. 

No one seems to take the initiative to dart into space or to drag a defender wide. 

It's pretty pointless crossing the ball in the air because we seem to have no one who even shows an interest in heading it so we should always be looking to get to the byline to pull the ball back. 

Martin had one of those days yesterday but he at least looks to play the quick pass. 

I hope that if the team does attempt a quicker tempo and occasionally it doesn't come off that the crowd doesn't get on their backs, but judged by those I sat next to yesterday I'm not holding out much hope. 

 

[RamNut]

I'm genuinely interested in what it is we are trying to do. I just can't tell.

Is it a dutch possession based bore-the-opposition-to-death kind of thing, or a Rowett-style counter attacking strategy with two holding midfielders or what? Its certainly very pedestrian with not alot of movement, and it seems to rely on the full backs to make things happen.

I read a few footballing biographies recently including Bill Shankly, Billy Steel, Bobby Robson, and Raich carter. I think it was Raich Carter who said the biggest crime in football was to pass it back to the goalkeeper. That made me smile.

I think i would have quite liked Raich Carter. He was an inside forward who dropped deep and was a play maker dominating the game. Who do we have like that? 

We are currently playing without any inside forwards and a lone striker. We've swapped two central attacking midfielders (mac1) for just one with two holding players (rowett). For me thats essentially why we are too deep and too negative. And what are the wingers meant to be doing? Working in tandem with an attacking full back or drifting in-field? It seems more like the latter. Is the lack of a pair working in partnership on the flanks the reason why the advanced full back just smacks it back to the defence? Or is it just laziness? 

Huddlestone said some parts of the team were understanding it faster than others. So Who's getting it and who isn't?

i'm not.

 

[Ellafella]

46 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

Trying to work with what he’s got, being patient and trying to get results in anyway possible.

I think it’s a sad indictment of fans who “want to be entertained” and quite happily see short term time and again..... we are a championship club that’s had let’s face it, a hard pre season, injuries to key players and off field antics (yes that was bad).

The man doesn’t wave his hands and go nuts on the touchline, nor does he have a witty line. The man is a consummate professional trying to implant his ideas and beliefs on the club..... it will take time, they’ll be many other games like yesterday where we just do enough. 

Don’t mind a difference of opinion one bit, but I’d say with the hand Cocu has been dealt so far.... he’s doing pretty well for me 

Yep; I get everything you say. However, it takes a certain quality of supporter to sit through a 2nd half like the one dished up yesterday. There are lots of contextual explanations and extenuating circumstaces for Philllip Cocu, but the style of play is unclear and not good to watch. Derby County supporters are used to proper football. Good football and entertaining football are synonymous in my book: fast, pass and move, get the ball up the field by passing to a team mate quickly. It’s not rocket science. Slow, ponderous, uncertain sideways passing that repeats across the back line fullback to centre back to goalkeeper to fullback to centre back to goalkeeper is poor football and poor to watch. As a coach I wouldn’t accept it and I’m certain a very large proportion of Derby County supporters will not accept it for long either. It’s not our way. 

[Ellafella]

2 minutes ago, RamNut said:

I'm genuinely interested in what it is we are trying to do. I just can't tell.

Is it a dutch possession based bore-the-opposition-to-death kind of thing, or a Rowett-style counter attacking strategy with two holding midfielders or what? Its certainly very pedestrian with not alot of movement, and it seems to rely on the full backs to make things happen.

I read a few footballing biographies recently including Bill Shankly, Billy Steel, Bobby Robson, and Raich carter. I think it was Raich Carter who said the biggest crime in football was to pass it back to the goalkeeper. That made me smile.

I think i would have quite liked Raich Carter. He was an inside forward who dropped deep and was a play maker dominating the game. Who do we have like that? 

We are currently playing without any inside forwards and a lone striker. We've swapped two central attacking midfielders (mac1) for just one with two holding players (rowett). For me thats essentially why we are too deep and too negative. And what are the wingers meant to be doing? Working in tandem with an attacking full back or drifting in-field? It seems more like the latter. Is the lack of a pair working in partnership on the flanks the reason why the advanced full back just smacks it back to the defence? Or is it just laziness? 

Huddlestone said some parts of the team were understanding it faster than others. So Who's getting it and who isn't?

i'm not.

 

Superb. I totally wish I’d written that ^. @RamNut. 

[nottingram]

Oh good I see that now we have 7 points from 9 it is performances that are the issue.

Last week v Birmingham, one of the most entertaining games you’re likely to see. I enjoyed it, but I absolutely do not want to see that every week. Yesterday was one of the most comfortable wins you’re likely to see, totally in control aside for around ten minutes after the second goal when we couldn’t get out. If you ask Cocu which performance he preferred, unless he’s clinically insane I would imagine he would say yesterday.

Think it’s easily forgotten we have had games like yesterday’s since Mac1. I remember a game against Brighton when we were 3-0 up after about 20 minutes (in 14-15 I think) and proceeded to pass it around for the next hour. 

People seem to like to pretend it’s a new thing but it isn’t, it’s usually a by product of teams coming with no interest in attacking.

Just wondering when it is that fans became so spoiled that a comfortable, easy, routine home win became something to boo and moan about when they get home

[Mafiabob]

28 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

Yep; I get everything you say. However, it takes a certain quality of supporter to sit through a 2nd half like the one dished up yesterday. There are lots of contextual explanations and extenuating circumstaces for Philllip Cocu, but the style of play is unclear and not good to watch. Derby County supporters are used to proper football. Good football and entertaining football are synonymous in my book: fast, pass and move, get the ball up the field by passing to a team mate quickly. It’s not rocket science. Slow, ponderous, uncertain sideways passing that repeats across the back line fullback to centre back to goalkeeper to fullback to centre back to goalkeeper is poor football and poor to watch. As a coach I wouldn’t accept it and I’m certain a very large proportion of Derby County supporters will not accept it for long either. It’s not our way. 

So if we play “entertaining football” but down the line come March we sit 19th and 5 points above the relegation zone you’ll be happy?

I dislike the fact you’re alluding fans won’t like it.

The last time I looked football at the end of the day is results based. Sometimes it’s not going to be pretty, sometimes it’s going to be sublime and great..... 

As for this “it isn’t Derby’s way” etc I think it’s just complete bullocks to be honest. I think fans are spoilt by football too much nowadays and every attack or goal has to be perfect, it has to be a better goal than someone else’s. Can’t we sometimes step back, and enjoy the result on occasion.

Think there’s a few on here who are overreacting to yesterday. It wasn’t poor, it wasn’t amazing.... it was adequate and more than enough to be beat a poor side at home.

I think it’s bordering on pathetic to be booing and moaning a backward pass. On the whole we kept it pretty well yesterday and managed the game well.

As for Cocu and style of play, give the guy time..... it will get there. I don’t think he has the personnel he wants with the possession based play he likes. He’s far more relaxed and different from the last two managers. I don’t want him to fall victim to our impatience yet again and calling for him to do this and that.

The Derby way has been to be impatient in the last 5-6 years..... that’s why we are still stuck where we are. Hopefully, if we afford Cocu time.... the results will come, and that’s what matters more than short term approach of chopping and changing every season (last two left of own accord I’ll give you that)

We will get there.... it’s the time for patience in a impatient world 

[Bwash_Ram]

1 hour ago, ThePrisoner said:

 

Ahh it all makes sense now.

When i heard loads of Derby fans shouting "Boooo car keys" at lawrence i though they meant that Keogh should have confiscated them and not let him drive.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

55 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

Yep; I get everything you say. However, it takes a certain quality of supporter to sit through a 2nd half like the one dished up yesterday. There are lots of contextual explanations and extenuating circumstaces for Philllip Cocu, but the style of play is unclear and not good to watch. Derby County supporters are used to proper football. Good football and entertaining football are synonymous in my book: fast, pass and move, get the ball up the field by passing to a team mate quickly. It’s not rocket science. Slow, ponderous, uncertain sideways passing that repeats across the back line fullback to centre back to goalkeeper to fullback to centre back to goalkeeper is poor football and poor to watch. As a coach I wouldn’t accept it and I’m certain a very large proportion of Derby County supporters will not accept it for long either. It’s not our way. 

 

16 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

As for this “it isn’t Derby’s way” etc I think it’s just complete bullocks to be honest.

Mafia is bang on. We're not a team who are known the world over for having a history of mesmerising football. Yes, we might have had spells in our history where we played good football, sometimes combining that with winning football, but so have the vast majority of teams in England. I think fans of most clubs like to imagine that they have an illustrious history of exciting styles of play, when they really don't. 

For me, demanding fast, attacking football comes across, at best, as having different priorities, at worst, as entitlement.

[Anag Ram]

5 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

 

Mafia is bang on. We're not a team who are known the world over for having a history of mesmerising football. Yes, we might have had spells in our history where we played good football, sometimes combining that with winning football, but so have the vast majority of teams in England. I think fans of most clubs like to imagine that they have an illustrious history of exciting styles of play, when they really don't. 

For me, demanding fast, attacking football comes across, at best, as having different priorities, at worst, as entitlement.

I'm not sure that the lack of entertaining football is down to Cocu. I think it's down to a set of players who lack ambition and ingenuity. 

Last season the bright moments came from talented young individuals with premier league clubs, not from Lampard's technical genius. 

No coach tells players not to want the ball. 

 

[Malagaram]

14 hours ago, jono said:

I don’t want to make wild suppositions so I thought i’d do it by ahem, suggestion. 

Howlers happen, the slip that got Martin and Waggy through against Brum... it’s the game and characteristic of athletic sport

but 2 own goal blunders and 2 other oddball happenings in so few matches at our relatively high level just doesn’t seem statistically or  fatalistically probabable. So I wonder if other forces could be at work. 

Maybe the gypsies are at work !

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

The fans who were sarcastically cheering Roos should think about what they are achieving. I think Martin and Josefzoon looked poor today. Everyone else seemed to be good, especially Shinnie in my opinion.

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

Also, the lack of movement when we have possession is worrying, especially second half. Players aren't offering options. Either they're tired, naive or lazy. Possibly all 3. 

[Malagaram]

3 hours ago, ColonelBlimp said:

Trying to play it out from the back.

Trying to keep posession to work openings.

If the openings are not created then you have to pass back to work it forward again.

The openings are not created when movement is poor and no options are available to the ball carrier.

It's down to our MF/F and wide men to give options by creating space.

And,trying to win matches,and not doing to bad a job

[GrimsbyRam]

1 hour ago, Davide said:

The fans who were sarcastically cheering Roos should think about what they are achieving. I think Martin and Josefzoon looked poor today. Everyone else seemed to be good, especially Shinnie in my opinion.

Not just today he’s had 1 1/2 decent games in his Derby career