The Politics Thread 2019

[Gritstone Ram]

2 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Nope - it's because the assessments are subcontracted to private companies like ATOS and Capita. They get paid per assessment, and get paid for hitting targets. An absolutely broken system which puts a profit motive before people's needs.

I have a friend with MS and he went through hell with his disability assessments. Absolute bureaucratic hell that involved multiple appeals over the course of 12 months. Eventually it was sorted but the toll it took on his mental health (and his wife's) was criminal.

 

Obviously you must be right it couldn’t possibly because they are doing their job.

[GboroRam]

48 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

May be if there weren’t so many work shy cheats draining the system the genuine people wouldn’t have to go through such a means test. What do you think is a fair system give benefits to everyone who claims them no questions asked?

Honestly I'd let doctors and nurses make those decisions. Why we subcontract it to a bureau paid on results (i.e. people put back into the job pool) I can't understand. 

Of course that would be impossible without resourcing the NHS, which this government is committed to not doing. 

[Gritstone Ram]

8 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Honestly I'd let doctors and nurses make those decisions. Why we subcontract it to a bureau paid on results (i.e. people put back into the job pool) I can't understand. 

Of course that would be impossible without resourcing the NHS, which this government is committed to not doing. 

So you’d clog up the NHS even more? Oh no you’d employ another 10,000 doctors to means test people who want to get out of work instead of having their skills dedicated to people who need it most. A classic example of wasting resources.

[uttoxram75]

29 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

So you’d clog up the NHS even more? Oh no you’d employ another 10,000 doctors to means test people who want to get out of work instead of having their skills dedicated to people who need it most. A classic example of wasting resources.

Can't believe you wouldn't want medical professionals to decide if you were fit for work or not.

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, Van Gritters said:

Obviously you must be right it couldn’t possibly because they are doing their job.

It's been going on for years as you could quite easily confirm if interested.

https://www.meassociation.org.uk/2013/08/former-gp-explains-why-he-became-an-atos-whistleblower-british-medical-journal-20-august-2013/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/a-relentless-conveyor-belt-grim-12305756

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/atos-whistleblower-lifts-lid-daily-9274785

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-43059422/whistleblower-benefit-assessors-copy-and-pasting-reports

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/recordings-prove-pip-report-ignored-near-fatal-attacks-overdoses-and-blackouts/

26 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

So you’d clog up the NHS even more? Oh no you’d employ another 10,000 doctors to means test people who want to get out of work instead of having their skills dedicated to people who need it most. A classic example of wasting resources.

Instead let's spend over a £billion on private contractors shall we? 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/dwp-quietly-hands-private-firms-16243454

 

[Gritstone Ram]

7 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

Can't believe you wouldn't want medical professionals to decide if you were fit for work or not.

You will get to a medical professional if necessary. Every medical professional doesn’t have to work for the NHS.

[Gritstone Ram]

2 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

It's been going on for years as you could quite easily confirm if interested.

https://www.meassociation.org.uk/2013/08/former-gp-explains-why-he-became-an-atos-whistleblower-british-medical-journal-20-august-2013/

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/a-relentless-conveyor-belt-grim-12305756

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/atos-whistleblower-lifts-lid-daily-9274785

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-43059422/whistleblower-benefit-assessors-copy-and-pasting-reports

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/recordings-prove-pip-report-ignored-near-fatal-attacks-overdoses-and-blackouts/

Instead let's spend over a £billion on private contractors shall we? 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/dwp-quietly-hands-private-firms-16243454

 

What I am getting at is if everyone was genuine there wouldn’t be a problem. Because people are dishonest it creates this.

[Comrade 86]

10 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

What I am getting at is if everyone was genuine there wouldn’t be a problem. Because people are dishonest it creates this.

Don't think anyone has disputed that but there has always been vetting bud. You seem to assume that anyone could just turn up and claim disability benefits prior to PIP. It's simply not the case.

Also, the point others are making and backed up by the first series of links I provided, is that ATOS go well beyond just rooting out malingerers. People are literally being driven to suicide and I'm sorry but the blame for that lies solely with ATOS, the assessors and those who awarded them not one but two contracts, the current government. 

For the record, ATOS is a French company too and yet have been deemed a better choice to offer this 'service' than any UK equivalent not once, but twice now.

Hmmm...

[jono]

1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said:

Nope - it's because the assessments are subcontracted to private companies like ATOS and Capita. They get paid per assessment, and get paid for hitting targets. An absolutely broken system which puts a profit motive before people's needs.

I have a friend with MS and he went through hell with his disability assessments. Absolute bureaucratic hell that involved multiple appeals over the course of 12 months. Eventually it was sorted but the toll it took on his mental health (and his wife's) was criminal.

 

Ok, I agree. It’s wrong, it’s ugly and creates situations like your friend’s. 
 

But realistically, what system would YOU have. You must surely concede they are a lot of chancers and I mean a lot, you only have to look at local papers and court cases across the country of the ones who were caught, so how do you weed them out ....without employing vast numbers of state employee checkers and assessors at huge cost ? 

[Gritstone Ram]

7 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Don't think anyone has disputed that but there has always been vetting bud. You seem to assume that anyone could just turn up and claim disability benefits prior to PIP. It's simply not the case.

Also, the point others are making and backed up by the first series of links I provided, is that ATOS go well beyond just rooting out malingerers. People are literally being driven to suicide and I'm sorry but the blame for that lies solely with ATOS, the assessors and those who awarded them not one but two contracts, the current government. 

For the record, ATOS is a French company too and yet have been deemed a better choice to offer this 'service' than any UK equivalent not once, but twice now.

Hmmm...

Hopefully that will get sorted soon then it may be down to having to put tenders over a certain amount out to the EU. 

[maxjam]

2 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

TBF - that's because it's a moderated forum with rules, and the mods are trying to do a job. Posts aren't being removed because of censorship - purely to adhere to the forum rules.

You can go on Telegram and say what you like

You seem to be making this about me and my right to free speech.  I know what I signed up for when I agreed to the T&Cs here and I've never had a post singled out to be removed.  I'm more concerned for example with the fact people such as the MPs Sarah Champion or Roger Godsiff get sacked for raising the politically insensitive concerns of many, or the fact that people get police visits for misgendering others or to 'check their thinking' or that 100 genders are being taught in schools as fact.  

These issues amongst others are subjects we haven't yet reached a consensus on in society, but the more popular social media sites, mainstream media and business under pressure from SJWs kicking up a stink or boycotting their products etc deplatform and silence, ban and sack only those on one side of the argument. 

[Comrade 86]

15 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

Hopefully that will get sorted soon then it may be down to having to put tenders over a certain amount out to the EU. 

You're spot on about OJEU and the like but having to release tenders to potential EU service companies does not mean that contracts have to be awarded to them. Tenders can be weighted any way the tenderer sees fit and the EU have no say in such matters.

I'll not say more about this as I don't think it'd be terribly discreet and my comments might even be actionable!

[Stive Pesley]

35 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I've never had a post singled out to be removed. 

That's twice I've seen you say that - presumably with a straight face.

Inshallah mate

[Stive Pesley]

55 minutes ago, jono said:

But realistically, what system would YOU have. You must surely concede they are a lot of chancers and I mean a lot, you only have to look at local papers and court cases across the country of the ones who were caught, so how do you weed them out ....without employing vast numbers of state employee checkers and assessors at huge cost ? 

Because in the vast majority of cases - it's absolutely obvious who the chancers are. Because the type of people who want to scam DLA/PIP are nowhere near as clever as they think they are. It just needs the assessors to be objective. Once the profit motive is in play then innocent and obviously disabled people get caught up in it, through no fault of their own. If a target has to be met then it's just a case of blocking as many as you can get away with, and hope that only a percentage have the will/means to appeal. 

But I will say that the common-held view of "millions of people scamming DLA/PIP" is patently a falsehood, and shame on anyone perpetuating it.

This article is only a few weeks old. In the past 2 years 89% of all reported cases of disability fraud were found to be not fraudulent at all

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.com/horrific-stats-show-how-most-disability-benefit-fraud-allegations-are-false/

 

Obviously it's an emotive subject as I saw my friend being driven to the verge of suicide by it all, so I'll leave it at that. I get it's easy to be cynical when you haven't had someone close affected. It's also easy in that situation to have some humanity and not offer any opinion at all

 

[maxjam]

30 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

That's twice I've seen you say that - presumably with a straight face.

Inshallah mate

Yep, because its a factual statement.  I have had a post or two deleted when the mods removed a couple of pages as we'd strayed onto religion but I've don't recall ever having a post removed for say calling out members on this forum as facist...

[uttoxram75]

2 hours ago, Van Gritters said:

You will get to a medical professional if necessary. Every medical professional doesn’t have to work for the NHS.

Many people end up dead before they get to a medical professional. It really is not a system that you can defend if you know anyone who has the horrendous misfortune to have to go through. 

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, jono said:

Ok, I agree. It’s wrong, it’s ugly and creates situations like your friend’s. 
 

But realistically, what system would YOU have. You must surely concede they are a lot of chancers and I mean a lot, you only have to look at local papers and court cases across the country of the ones who were caught, so how do you weed them out ....without employing vast numbers of state employee checkers and assessors at huge cost ? 

Not this one! Read the articles I posted then tell us that PIP is fit for purpose. And if you still then believe it is, how about capital punishment? Would you argue that it's ok to hang a few thousand innocent men as long as a actual murderers get punished too? That's not a spurious analogy either it's precisely the argument you are using. People are being driven to suicide by a system that treats cheats and the vulnerable as if they are the same thing and you're defending it!

I actually despair of this whole debate. I've got time for you as you know but you post about the left's rigid dogmas and opinions but seem wholly blind to your own. Where's the balance you often allude to in that? I'm sorry but the door swings both ways. 

Anyway, bed for me now as my blood is up!

[Comrade 86]

And just before I go, here's another SJW inspired piece of leftist propaganda from the socialist controlled media. Just more fake news huh! 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/little-boy-pneumonia-forced-sleep-21053225

Sleep tight!

[rynny]

8 hours ago, Paul71 said:

I don't think he is. I think he is trying to say they are an issue and better management of personal budgets will mean no need to use them. 

Just saying it appallingly.

I don't hear that bit, what I hear is along the lines of "if people haven't got any money then they can get a pay day loan or something like that."

[Gritstone Ram]

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

Many people end up dead before they get to a medical professional. It really is not a system that you can defend if you know anyone who has the horrendous misfortune to have to go through. 

What to decide if they are fit for work? Give me an example?