The Politics Thread 2019

[Uptherams]

3 hours ago, jono said:

... They want something else that has nothing to do with health and justice. 
 

They want every single nut and bolt, floor mop and syringe to be supplied and designed by a state employee. Other wise it is a betrayal of the British people and a sense of fairness and justice.

I wonder at what point we come full circle and this leaches into citizenship  and immigration too. One party state here we come ?

[A Ram for All Seasons]

2 hours ago, jono said:

I really struggle with US politics. Most Americans I’ve met have always seemed reasonable, open, positive and friendly but there is something in their genetic make that makes their politics byzantine. Beneath the Disney gloss its a strange place with extremes good and bad everywhere. 
 

interesting you mentioning Erdogan. He represents for me all that is wrong. How can a nation that fathered and cherished the vision of Attaturk end up with a weak bully which is how he comes across to me. 

If it's any consolation, American politics are even worse than ours. Try used to be very much worse than ours.

[Ambitious]

I thought they would've learnt after yesterday, but an 'oven ready' Brexit deal that you have to put in the microwave does not give me confidence. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

Hugh Grant wandering around London campaigning for anybody including Stalin in an effort to get a hung parliament.  Swinson blustering apologies for backing Welfare cuts ( at least till she gets the hung parliament she want's).  Diane Abbotts son spitting on and punching potential employees of his mother .  I'm sure Boris has upset someone on here today.  Normally just being Boris seems enough.

Another wonderful day in British politics.  Who get's your vote ? Not long now .

[TimRam]

Corbyn - Tbe only man who can respond to a question about Nato by mentioning climate change in his reply (as he did on the bbc news last night). Daft old sod.

[A Ram for All Seasons]

13 hours ago, jono said:

They want every single nut and bolt, floor mop and syringe to be supplied and designed by a state employee. Other wise it is a betrayal of the British people and a sense of fairness and justice. A flawed premise.

Not true. They want every single nut and bolt, floor mop and syringe to be supplied directly to the NHS and not via Richard Branson or any other dodger holed up on some Caribbean island.

This is all about cutting out the middleman. There is nothing inherently socialist in that 

[Wolfie]

21 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

Not true. They want every single nut and bolt, floor mop and syringe to be supplied directly to the NHS and not via Richard Branson or any other dodger holed up on some Caribbean island.

This is all about cutting out the middleman. There is nothing inherently socialist in that 

Even if that middleman is able to provide the same or better services for lower cost than the NHS could do themselves?

That's just looking for good value for taxpayers isn't it?. We all know how inefficient such massive organisations can be - especially when wholly state owned & run.

[maxjam]

7 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Another wonderful day in British politics.  Who get's your vote ? Not long now .

None of them. 

Tories always get in where I live anyway so its a bit pointless either way really.

[Gritstone Ram]

15 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

Even if that middleman is able to provide the same or better services for lower cost than the NHS could do themselves?

That's just looking for good value for taxpayers isn't it?. We all know how inefficient such massive organisations can be - especially when wholly state owned & run.

In fairness I have had experience of the middleman who promised the earth and delivered duck all.

[Comrade 86]

Apparently the Russians have leaked the draft version of the Boris's Brexit Deal ad.

Ding!

OK so this is really my version but who cares, right!

[jono]

25 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

Not true. They want every single nut and bolt, floor mop and syringe to be supplied directly to the NHS and not via Richard Branson or any other dodger holed up on some Caribbean island.

This is all about cutting out the middleman. There is nothing inherently socialist in that 

You don’t really define middle men do you though.? Just a lazy dig a a rich person.

 A business owner supplying floor mops ? or the ultrasound machine or the deep cleaning company 

we all work for someone.

yes there are none domiciles who dodge tax, there the Amazon type of company who dodge tax legally. Change the Tax law then. I don’t mean tax rates! I mean tax law. Close loop holes - I’m with you

And once again .. Dividends .. most don’t go the Caribbean islands or the Isle of Man. Most of them pay pensions to retirees.

The NHS isn’t for sale even if Momentum and the socialist workers party tells you it is because they lie, because they don’t want a mixed social democratic mixed economy. The want a one party state. 

 

 

[Comrade 86]

2 minutes ago, jono said:

 

The NHS isn’t for sale even if Momentum and the socialist workers party tells you it is because they lie, because they don’t want a mixed social democratic mixed economy. The want a one party state. 

 

Rather take exception to this comment. Are the bulk of us Trots and Marxists suggesting the NHS is for sale or that it is being laid open to profiteering? They are rather different things! 

And while Momentum and the Socialist Workers Party may comprise a portion of Labour support, so do many democratic socialists, myself being one of them. I certainly have no interest in a single party state, thank you very much!

[A Ram for All Seasons]

30 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

Even if that middleman is able to provide the same or better services for lower cost than the NHS could do themselves?

Judging by the American health system, they won't be able to provide the same or a better service.

Lower levels of provision, inferior outcomes, twice the price: good for Richard Branson but not for us.

[A Ram for All Seasons]

23 minutes ago, jono said:

The NHS isn’t for sale even if Momentum and the socialist workers party tells you it is because they lie, because they don’t want a mixed social democratic mixed economy. The want a one party state. 

No, it's like going to the Denby factory outlet instead of some poncy china shop with inflated prices. It is sound economic practice.

You seem to have been conditioned into finding reds under the bed everywhere you look.

[GboroRam]

35 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

Even if that middleman is able to provide the same or better services for lower cost than the NHS could do themselves?

That's just looking for good value for taxpayers isn't it?. We all know how inefficient such massive organisations can be - especially when wholly state owned & run.

I think you have to ask, if a middleman can make a profit and sell to the NHS at a lower cost than the NHS can procure it on its own, why? 

An organisation such as the NHS shouldn't need middlemen. There should be no reason why a reseller can achieve better results than direct purchasing - not for an organisation with the buying power of the NHS. I can see why small organisations would want to band together to maximise their opportunities, but not in this case.

I know you think that public ownership automatically means inefficiency, but why? I don't agree.

[jono]

19 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Rather take exception to this comment. Are the bulk of us Trots and Marxists suggesting the NHS is for sale or that it is being laid open to profiteering? They are rather different things! 

And while Momentum and the Socialist Workers Party may comprise a portion of Labour support, so do many democratic socialists, myself being one of them. I certainly have no interest in a single party state, thank you very much!

And I am a democrat with socialist leanings. The angle of dangle is subject to change over time but it is a long way from much of  JC’s support base which sees common sense and good business as nasty irritations and road blocks to what they really want. 
 

thank you though for actually responding to points rather than doing a “what about XYZ or just ignoring and moving on to another point. It’s always interesting to examine another’s argument. The Labour Party as a whole is one thing. The current bloc controlling policy and leadership is one that I simply could never vote for. The reasons are probably more than clear from my various posts on here.
Mind you I can’t wait for the election to be over or a game to be played so I can get back to football threads which are a lot less contentious. I sort of understand those old pub rules .. no politics and no religion ?

 

[Wolfie]

33 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

In fairness I have had experience of the middleman who promised the earth and delivered duck all.

Indeed & that's why there has to be proper oversight & providers being held to account

14 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

Judging by the American health system, they won't be able to provide the same or a better service.

Lower levels of provision, inferior outcomes, twice the price: good for Richard Branson but not for us.

We don't have to look to America. We have enough experience in the UK of service providers to be able to make a judgement as to whether the system works. And by that I mean actually works for patients, not in terms of ideology on either side of the debate.

There is far too much politics involved in the NHS and both sides lose sight of what actually matters: The patient on one side and the taxpayer on the other. We all want the best services for a reasonable cost, don't we?.

I said in the old thread that I actually think that Health (& Education?) are too important to be left to one political party to manage according to their short term whims. Budgets and standards should be agreed cross-party IMO and on a long term basis and then monitored and enforced by an independent body. How much money is wasted when grand plans are introduced and then scrapped a few years down the line?

[Stive Pesley]

37 minutes ago, jono said:

he NHS isn’t for sale even if Momentum and the socialist workers party tells you it is because they lie, because they don’t want a mixed social democratic mixed economy. The want a one party state. 

I think you can still get treatment on the NHS for rampant paranoia.

[Gritstone Ram]

4 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I think you have to ask, if a middleman can make a profit and sell to the NHS at a lower cost than the NHS can procure it on its own, why? 

An organisation such as the NHS shouldn't need middlemen. There should be no reason why a reseller can achieve better results than direct purchasing - not for an organisation with the buying power of the NHS. I can see why small organisations would want to band together to maximise their opportunities, but not in this case.

I know you think that public ownership automatically means inefficiency, but why? I don't agree.

One of the problems with the in house model is the number of employees you are responsible for and things like pension burdens, health and safety issues, sickness, holidays etc.

[GboroRam]

5 minutes ago, jono said:

Mind you I can’t wait for the election to be over or a game to be played so I can get back to football threads which are a lot less contentious. I sort of understand those old pub rules .. no politics and no religion ?

 

Oh, we've got Brexit to bitch about for years still ?