The Politics Thread 2019

[A Ram for All Seasons]

13 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

You do recognise that privatisation in the NHS, on any scale, is hugely unpopular, and that any government that was planning it would be doing it as quietly and as under the radar as possible

Not only privatisation but also investor protection with private courts of arbitration that can order states to pay enormous sums in compensation to private investors if they can't get their own way.

That is something that you can't hold a referendum on.

[Comrade 86]

4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Pathetic.

Back on ignore you go.

Bye!

PS - I will wait 10 minutes because I know you'll be dying to have the last word.

It was a joke mate but climb out your box again if you like. The sensible answer has already been provided by @SchtivePesley so you could address that if you like or actually answer the questions I put to a while back rather than just coming back with more of your own and then getting stroppy again.

....Or put me on ignore again. Couldn't care less mate.

[Gritstone Ram]

10 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

Personally don’t see the problem of exploring the privatisation of the NHS. As part of any new deal I have ever done I have always presented different options with pros and cons for each of them. The tories have said it’s off the table and was never on it, I’d have been happy if they said yup we looked at it to see if we could improve the system but decided it wasn’t the best option forward.

Seems Labour are thinking their best way of winning is to focus on something that it has already been said isn’t going to happen, says a lot about their own manifesto.

I’m all for value for money. The tax I pay I want value for it. I think there is a lot of waste in these nationalised institutions that needs sorting out. The feeling I get is people add a couple of 0’s to quote to these companies. I heard stories of contractors submitting invoices to the NHS for work that has never been done. I don’t think a particular party is at fault but something needs doing to stop this.

[maxjam]

38 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Impossible to put timescales on it. Trump is looking likely to be impeached in January anyway - and who knows when Brexit will happen (if ever)

I think there's more than a bit of hope there ?

Impeachment is looking increasingly unlikely imo, it had been split along party lines but recent evidence and testimonies and increasing resistance from 'the people' have swayed some Democrats.  It also likes like it will be worse for Biden than it will Trump.  As the Russia/Mueller thing everyone pinned their hopes on failed this just feels like the last desperate chance to get him out before the election. 

And as for Brexit ultimately comes down to next Thursday.  Tory win = Brexit, anyone else = no Brexit. 

It's gonna be an interesting 12 months both sides of the Atlantic one way or another ?

[i-Ram]

46 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

Exactly.. Right or wrong of it Corbyn is a liability to his party.. Even some okish policies get lost because of him.. How can they not be winning by a landslide? Blind faith in a tainted fool.

At this time of year if you can’t believe in a kindly old man offering lots of gifts and goodies you must have a very cold heart ?

[Comrade 86]

Ouch! 

[Uptherams]

2 hours ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

You made the point that Labour et al had a problem with unattractive 'radicals', that they need to shed before they can get elected. I agree.

… But I think you are deluded if you think the Tories don't have an issue with unattractive personnel.

 

What makes these people extreme? 

[Uptherams]

1 hour ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

Sadly very true. He was also responsible for the "buy one, pay for two" policy known as the Private Finance Initiative.

There are good reasons why today's Labour party is called Labour and not New Labour.

But why did they get called New Labour. Because in order to become popular and win an election they needed to distance themselves from past failures of Labour. Now we are back to them. 

[maxjam]

9 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

What makes these people extreme? 

This is an interesting article - its about the US but things are very similar here;

https://www.the-american-interest.com/2018/05/16/the-top-14-causes-of-political-polarization/

[uttoxram75]

3 hours ago, Van Gritters said:

I think that Labour have privatised more of the NHS than anyone else.

4% was privately run in 2010, now it’s 12%. 
Death by a thousand cuts.

It will only go one way with a Tory government. 

[maxjam]

4 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

4% was privately run in 2010, now it’s 12%. 
Death by a thousand cuts.

It will only go one way with a Tory government. 

 

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/articles/big-election-questions-nhs-privatised

[uttoxram75]

3 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

But why did they get called New Labour. Because in order to become popular and win an election they needed to distance themselves from past failures of Labour. Now we are back to them. 

New Labour was acceptable to the moneyed elite. Murdoch vetted Blair at his private residence before switching the Sun’s allegiance to him before the 1997 election. 
 

Labour would have walked it without Murdochs help anyway.

Corbyn is someone the elite truly fear. He cannot be bought. His principles are not for sale.

The billionaire owners of the press have tried every smear they can to discredit a man who wants genuine change, that’s what will cost Labour the election.

Any Labour leader with socialist principles will face the same thunderstorm of abuse and character assassination in the future.

[Uptherams]

1 minute ago, uttoxram75 said:

 

Any Labour leader with socialist principles will face the same thunderstorm of abuse and character assassination in the future.

I agree but the man has many questions to answer that have nothing to do with socialism. 

[uttoxram75]

12 minutes ago, maxjam said:

 

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/articles/big-election-questions-nhs-privatised

So the overall total is 25% according to your link....

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/12/the-great-nhs-sell-off
 

we could post links all day ( well, I can’t, I’ve got to go to work in a minute), but I guess neither of us will change our minds about the Tories true agenda for the NHS.

[uttoxram75]

12 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

I agree but the man has many questions to answer that have nothing to do with socialism. 

In your opinion.

I believe Johnson has far murkier stuff in his locker than Corbyn has.

Russia report out yet? Can you imagine the shitstorm if Corbyn was refusing to publish something that the security forces had already checked and passed for public consumption? 

[WhiteHorseRam]

27 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

What makes these people extreme? 

You started talking about electability/non-electability. 

The fringes of both main parties are politically turgid, are often extremely out of touch, extremely in their own little bubble constantly reinforcing each others fringey views.

Can be extremely funny on Newsnight (Will Self and Gino Francois). The Tory are like the Corbynistas, but with tweed not Billy Bragg t-shirts. 

Same effect - bullet proof in their safe seats, but have no centre-ground broad appeal.

Best locked in the toilet.

[1of4]

The NHS presently, as stated by various posters, use private health companies to provide some services for NHS patients. What we should be talking about how we pay for our healthcare in the future.

Will we carry on with the way it's done now. Where we all pay a portion of our wages and no mattter how much or little that is, we all entitled to receive the same level of healthcare. Or could we end up with how the Americans pay for their healthcare . Where the more you can afford to pay for your insurance premiums to private companies the better health care you receive.

Worryingly I fear that the latter of the two options will be gradually introduced by a tory government under it's present leadership.

[Uptherams]

3 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

In your opinion.

I believe Johnson has far murkier stuff in his locker than Corbyn has.

Russia report out yet? Can you imagine the shitstorm if Corbyn was refusing to publish something that the security forces had already checked and passed for public consumption? 

I don't care about their personal lives. 

So it's being reported that this NHS document released on Reddit ? was released by the Russians. ?

Some of you have some very high standards for all of society, even people you don't know. But not Jeremy. Just try treating him like you would anyone else when it comes to his association and affection towards extremists and terrorists and dictators of all kinds. 

[Uptherams]

4 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

You started talking about electability/non-electability. 

The fringes of both main parties are politically turgid, are often extremely out of touch, extremely in their own little bubble constantly reinforcing each others fringey views.

 

There is no identifiable extremist group within the Tory party. Labour has many identity groups that become more extreme and more secluded from society with every passing year. Focus groups are being and have been conducted and people in the Midlands and in the North that have voted Labour many times in the past, from working class backgrounds, do not know what the party is even meant to stand for anymore or who it is trying to actually represent and they are turning away. All because Labour have turned their backs on them and opened the doors to identity politics. The kind of people who want to be represented as a wider member of society. Not because of X,Y,Z identity. Simple requests versus demands imposed on everyone else because of a few hundreds of thousands of voters from each identity group. 

[maxjam]

36 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

So the overall total is 25% according to your link....
 

Nothing at all partisan about that figure you pulled from the report ?

Key paragraphs here;

In 2018/19 NHS commissioners spent £9.2 billion on services delivered by the private sector (also called ‘independent sector providers’). This is more than the £8.8 billion spent in 2017/18, but due to inflation and growth in the Department of Health and Social Care budget, the share of their total revenue budget that was spent on private providers remained constant at 7.3 per cent in both 2017/18 and 2018/19

he Department of Health and Social Care accounts also record how much the NHS spends on services provided by the voluntary and not-for-profit sectors and local authorities. If spending on these services was added to the spending on independent sector providers, this would total £13.7 billion in 2018/19. This amount was 11.0 per cent of total revenue spending by the Department and is similar to the 10.9 per cent spend in 2017/18.

You however chose to focus on this;

If spending on primary care services – including GPs, pharmacy, optical and dental services – is included, some have estimated that approximately 25 per cent of NHS spending goes on the private sector. 

The final paragraph is also worth taking note of;

In many cases the use of private providers to treat NHS patients reflects operational challenges within NHS providers and is a continuation of longstanding practices. Provided that patients receive care that it is timely and free at the point of use, our view is that the provider of a service is less important than the quality and efficiency of the care they deliver. The NHS can also benefit from partnerships and joint ventures with the private sector to deliver some clinical and non-clinical services.

 

46 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

we could post links all day ( well, I can’t, I’ve got to go to work in a minute), but I guess neither of us will change our minds about the Tories true agenda for the NHS.

I agree that we could all probably find links to support our own points of view from somewhere but this is from exactly the same body that others have used earlier in the thread to present the other side of the argument.  Maybe true agendas are exposed when only certain paragraphs from selected reports are deemed viable?

 

49 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/12/the-great-nhs-sell-off

An equivalent source would be the Daily Mail, but I'd get laughed at for posted that.