Comrade 86 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: It's a moot point - £9.2bn of NHS funding is already in the hands of private companies https://www.nhsforsale.info/private-providers/ If you believe that post-Brexit - this will not increase dramatically as we negotiate trade deals with foreign powers then I have a bridge you may be interested in buying Rather than us descending into petty arguments though - let's all spend that time reviewing the webpages at the above link instead? I've had a quick review @SchtivePesley but I find no evidence of privatisation. Just a list of a few philanthropic entities like Serco, Capita and good old Virgin Health, all of whom are not-for-profit organisations. Whilst you point to this as evidence of a privatisation programme, the truth is rather different. The FACT is that our bone-idle, mainly foreign NHS workers have so abused the service which pays them their handsome wages (some even having the cheek to feed themselves via food banks rather than pay for their own food), that we are forced into a situation whereby we rely on more and more charitable entities such as the aforementioned stepping into the breach despite them having literally nothing to gain. Our good friend Donald Trump has also made offers of further charitable donations so the future is far brighter than you would have us all believe. Tsk, tsk. He has also confirmed that US pharmaceuticals will be provided to us at the same rate as the block of 28 states who currently comprise the EU, perhaps even cheaper, and all this despite the fact that the former will be spending around 15 times as much as good old Blighty. In so much, we are already seeing irrefutable evidence of the huge benefits bestowed on the British public by the seamless and smooth transition to a post-Brexit Britain, all delivered by the much maligned Tory government. One might be forgiven for thinking that some gratitude is therefore in order, Schtive, instead of your incessant carping. Perhaps if you could set aside your cynicism for one moment you might actually absorb and acknowledge these FACTS rather than resorting to cheap scaremongering tactics which should be somewhat below a man of your stature. Accept and acknowledge that if Trump says this is the case, then you can rely on him to deliver on his promises, as he has been proven to be a man of honour and integrity on countless occasions as evidenced by the fact he has yet to be successfully impeached. Quite frankly, a more ringing endorsement is hard to imagine. Could you also perhaps address the tone of posts in future? Offering to sell us bridges is a tad cheap as the inference that we are easily duped is clear for all to see. If you were a little more respectful then perhaps we could see our way to stop calling you a remoaning, marxist, snowflake and inferring that you are unable to read. Sincerely, The Chaps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 22 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: I think his argument will be that this this is happening under the Tories, regardless of whether we're in or out, but that it will be accelerated if we leave the EU because of a potentially murky trade deal with the US. I've done very little research into the claim that the NHS is being, and will be, sold off by the Tories. But, if it is being privatised by stealth, then Stive's argument is plausible, and certainly not contradictory. You certainly need to do some research on the privatisation of the NHS if you think it all falls at the door of the Conservatives. @SchtivePesley knows this but likes to bury his head in the sand when anything shows Labour in a bad light! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkFruitsRam7 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 24 minutes ago, Van Gritters said: I think that Labour have privatised more of the NHS than anyone else. 9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: You certainly need to do some research on the privatisation of the NHS if you think it all falls at the door of the Conservatives. @SchtivePesley knows this but likes to bury his head in the sand when anything shows Labour in a bad light! Tony Blair's Labour Party was very different from Jeremy Corbyn's, so any comparison is null and void IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 9 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: Tony Blair's Labour Party was very different from Jeremy Corbyn's, so any comparison is null and void IMO. Touché. You seem to have a very well attenuated BS detector young'un! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: Tony Blair's Labour Party was very different from Jeremy Corbyn's, so any comparison is null and void IMO. Yeah fair point. Although I'm told Johnson's government are the most right wing party of all time but they are still compared to previous governments... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 If we want to use all past government to inform the decision then Labour trumps all as they implemented the NHS in the first place. On the now though; it's looking more and more likely that the plan for the Conservatives is to privatise some elements of the NHS, at the very least pharmaceuticals. While I doubt there's a risk of having to pay thousands of pounds for an ambulance like they do in the states; I think the risk of paying 1000% more for medication is very real. And then, once that process starts is it likely to stop? I don't think so. We are in a weird position where every party leader seems like a bit of a loon when it comes to certain topics; and while all the decisions were being made about Brexit I didn't really care - I think Brexit is an absurdly stupid idea but I could still live in a country that went through with it. I can't live here without the NHS - so that's become my one issue I'm voting around. And while it may not happen on a large scale, or at all, I can't take the risk. And I'd happily "risk" Jeremy Corbyn to avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 25 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said: Tony Blair's Labour Party was very different from Jeremy Corbyn's, so any comparison is null and void IMO. It does rather undermine the argument of "Corbyn is an awful radical marxist left winger - what they need is a more centrist leader like Tony Blair" if you then use "Tony Blair being even worse at privatising the NHS than the Tories" as a comeback in a different argument ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSD Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Maybe we should let Boris win and Labour (sorry the unions) can elect a proper party leader to challenge The Tories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Right then. For any poster calling bs against Johnson/Trump, and who is certain the NHS is for sale. Can we please have your timescales and how this is going to be measured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, SouthStandDan said: Maybe we should let Boris win and Labour (sorry the unions) can elect a proper party leader to challenge The Tories. Although to be fair I think youth and lack of historical knowledge along with lots of promised "free stuff" will have as much influence as the unions do at the polling station. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Right then. For any poster calling bs against Johnson/Trump, and who is certain the NHS is for sale. Can we please have your timescales and how this is going to be measured? Impossible to put timescales on it. Trump is looking likely to be impeached in January anyway - and who knows when Brexit will happen (if ever) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: It does rather undermine the argument of "Corbyn is an awful radical marxist left winger - what they need is a more centrist leader like Tony Blair" if you then use "Tony Blair being even worse at privatising the NHS than the Tories" as a comeback in a different argument ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Right then. For any poster calling bs against Johnson/Trump, and who is certain the NHS is for sale. Can we please have your timescales and how this is going to be measured? No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ram for All Seasons Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Van Gritters said: I think that Labour have privatised more of the NHS than anyone else. Sadly very true. He was also responsible for the "buy one, pay for two" policy known as the Private Finance Initiative. There are good reasons why today's Labour party is called Labour and not New Labour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Right then. For any poster calling bs against Johnson/Trump, and who is certain the NHS is for sale. Can we please have your timescales and how this is going to be measured? You do recognise that privatisation in the NHS, on any scale, is hugely unpopular, and that any government that was planning it would be doing it as quietly and as under the radar as possible? We have a redacted document that Labour claim says categorically that the NHS was involved in discussions (when the Tories said it was not discussed). I've even seen claims that the unredacted version that Labour claim to have seen is Russian interference, but I don't see the Tories releasing the document (or any part of it) in an effort to put those rumours to bed? If you're so confident that the Tories, or the pink Labour party that preceded Corbyn, will not privatise the NHS then you are very trusting of people who have shown they cannot be trusted. I for one am not prepared to take that risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: No Pathetic. Back on ignore you go. Bye! PS - I will wait 10 minutes because I know you'll be dying to have the last word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamRam Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Personally don’t see the problem of exploring the privatisation of the NHS. As part of any new deal I have ever done I have always presented different options with pros and cons for each of them. The tories have said it’s off the table and was never on it, I’d have been happy if they said yup we looked at it to see if we could improve the system but decided it wasn’t the best option forward. Seems Labour are thinking their best way of winning is to focus on something that it has already been said isn’t going to happen, says a lot about their own manifesto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 14 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Impossible to put timescales on it. Trump is looking likely to be impeached in January anyway - and who knows when Brexit will happen (if ever) Will never get past the Senate.. Still no credible opposition, he’s a shoe in again next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 29 minutes ago, SouthStandDan said: Maybe we should let Boris win and Labour (sorry the unions) can elect a proper party leader to challenge The Tories. Exactly.. Right or wrong of it Corbyn is a liability to his party.. Even some okish policies get lost because of him.. How can they not be winning by a landslide? Blind faith in a tainted fool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 10 minutes ago, GboroRam said: You do recognise that privatisation in the NHS, on any scale, is hugely unpopular, and that any government that was planning it would be doing it as quietly and as under the radar as possible? We have a redacted document that Labour claim says categorically that the NHS was involved in discussions (when the Tories said it was not discussed). I've even seen claims that the unredacted version that Labour claim to have seen is Russian interference, but I don't see the Tories releasing the document (or any part of it) in an effort to put those rumours to bed? If you're so confident that the Tories, or the pink Labour party that preceded Corbyn, will not privatise the NHS then you are very trusting of people who have shown they cannot be trusted. I for one am not prepared to take that risk. Labour also told us that nobody earning under £80k would be paying more tax and that their manifesto had been fully costed. Using their projections for saving the NHS is not a risk I'm prepared to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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