Chris Martin - Player Discussion Thread.

[Chester40]

19 hours ago, Ram8 said:

Ok Hathersage Ram, perhaps I went a little over the top with my assertion that CM should take out a legal claim against Pearson and Rowett, this wouldn’t be possible I suppose. But I said it to emphasise just how much the actions of two managers at this club, neither of whom should have been appointed in the first place given their antithesis towards flair players and adventurous attacking play (the ‘Derby Way’ as it has sometimes been called) have adversely affected the career of one of the best players at this club over the past decade.

How would you feel if you had been an employee at a business (say) who had been responsible for the growth of that business with your creative ideas, and then a new boss comes in and tells you, despite your positive contributions, that you are surplus to requirements, and some of your fellow employees who have never had a creative idea or made a positive contribution in their lives are being promoted instead ? 

In no uncertain terms, he must feel that he has been kicked in the teeth, for no reason other than two pedestrian, unimaginative, tactically deficient managers haven’t had the imagination to fit him into their plans for the club. And that applies also to their failure to appreciate Will Hughes, Craig Bryson, Tom Ince and Cyrus Christie ! 

At last however we appear to have a decent manager in Frank Lampard, my only worry being that he will be so busy integrating his new signings into his plans, that Chris Martin has ‘gone off his radar’ already. But hopefully not.

I have been tired of Chris for a long time...I was one of the early petty haters.

His incessant gum chewing, his inability to stay on his feet, his mardy face and arm-throwing really got my goat...irrespective of his 20-goal a season record.

However, I love a good analogy...and it just goes to show even after 50,000 Martin posts you can find an interesting point.

You're probably right @Ram8...he probably has got good reason to feel let down and unappreciated.

And now I finally feel the majority are agreeing that he shouldnt be our main 'go to' man...I feel a bit guilty for being right all along ?

[Comrade 86]

13 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

I have been tired of Chris for a long time...I was one of the early petty haters.

His incessant gum chewing, his inability to stay on his feet, his mardy face and arm-throwing really got my goat...irrespective of his 20-goal a season record.

However, I love a good analogy...and it just goes to show even after 50,000 Martin posts you can find an interesting point.

You're probably right @Ram8...he probably has got good reason to feel let down and unappreciated.

And now I finally feel the majority are agreeing that he shouldnt be our main 'go to' man...I feel a bit guilty for being right all along ?

Aren't most 9s mardy and demanding though. Always moaning at their teammates... All the ones I played with were. Fine off the pitch but hard work on it. I think it's part and parcel of a lot of strikers but when they're getting poor service and getting kicked from pillar to post every game by lumpy CBs, it not too hard to understand ?

[TuffLuff]

14 minutes ago, 86 points said:

Aren't most 9s mardy and demanding though. Always moaning at their teammates... All the ones I played with were. Fine off the pitch but hard work on it. I think it's part and parcel of a lot of strikers but when they're getting poor service and getting kicked from pillar to post every game by lumpy CBs, it not too hard to understand ?

Yeah what is it with these strikers wanting to win games of football by wanting the ball when they have space and in position? Or wanting to wind up their opponents (also thought he was lazy and didn’t pressure enough ?)? God these ruddy strikers, give me the ones who are half a yard behind all the time because they run around aimlessly. NOW THATS A STRIKER, SHOW ME THAT YOU RUN AND HOLD NO EMOTION

Give me strength.

Also how many laid those comments at Vydra when you can lay all the stroppiness, trying to win free kicks etc at his door too? Or does he just look like he has a cheery face?

[cheron85]

2 hours ago, Chester40 said:

I have been tired of Chris for a long time...I was one of the early petty haters.

His incessant gum chewing, his inability to stay on his feet, his mardy face and arm-throwing really got my goat...irrespective of his 20-goal a season record.

Did you play football as a kid?

Because this:

1 hour ago, 86 points said:

Aren't most 9s mardy and demanding though. Always moaning at their teammates... All the ones I played with were. 

All the best strikers are like that - At pretty much every level - They always want the ball, they always want to be scoring, they want to be a part of everything, throw themselves in every situation, clash with defenders all the time even if they're much bigger - That's what Martin does

No-one used to have a go at Michael Owen and he spent half his time on the floor having been taken out by a defender - Because he'd challenge much bigger guys - Martin has spent most of his time with us playing against two 6ft+ defenders most games - He might be a relatively big lad but he's under 6ft (I think) so compared to most CBs he's still the small guy

[Anag Ram]

8 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Did you play football as a kid?

Because this:

All the best strikers are like that - At pretty much every level - They always want the ball, they always want to be scoring, they want to be a part of everything, throw themselves in every situation, clash with defenders all the time even if they're much bigger - That's what Martin does

No-one used to have a go at Michael Owen and he spent half his time on the floor having been taken out by a defender - Because he'd challenge much bigger guys - Martin has spent most of his time with us playing against two 6ft+ defenders most games - He might be a relatively big lad but he's under 6ft (I think) so compared to most CBs he's still the small guy

He's big enough and strong enough to stay on his feet when he wants to. 

When he is struggling in the air or when he has no obvious out ball he makes the most of any challenge and falls spectacularly to the deck. 

He is a bigger Neymar who in common with other forwards feels that so many poor defensive challenges go unpunished that he might as well buy a few.

I am not criticising him for this but feel I should disabuse of the idea he is somehow getting bullied.

[Chester40]

22 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

Did you play football as a kid?

 

40 years and counting. And as an aside, I can honestly say I have never dived, ever.

There was a large element of tongue in cheek to what I was saying of course...

He did annoy me. I found his body language really irritating. But he was a much better and more effective  player than I wanted to give him credit for....

To go over very well trodden ground, for me all the things that I felt he didn't do so well - mark him out as a Steve Mc 'oh Chrissy top man' main player. Not a Frank get every ounce of ability squeezed out for the team. That's my opinion and I will stick to it regardless of statistics, facts, argument or validity. Which is my god-given right as an armchair fan.

[cheron85]

41 minutes ago, Anag Ram said:

He's big enough and strong enough to stay on his feet when he wants to. 

When he is struggling in the air or when he has no obvious out ball he makes the most of any challenge and falls spectacularly to the deck. 

He is a bigger Neymar who in common with other forwards feels that so many poor defensive challenges go unpunished that he might as well buy a few.

I am not criticising him for this but feel I should disabuse of the idea he is somehow getting bullied.

I'm not sure I claimed he gets bullied - If I did that wasn't my intention

Defenders are constantly pushing the boundaries of 'acceptable' behaviour - Just look at the number of penalties awarded in the world cup cos they finally decided to clamp down on fouls in the box - The smarter forwards take advantage of that - Most of the shoves/pressure etc that Martin goes down under are legit fouls - He just tends to make sure he's in those positions - As a lot of the best forwards do

I think listing him in with Neymar after the World Cup is a bit harsh

23 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

40 years and counting. And as an aside, I can honestly say I have never dived, ever.

There was a large element of tongue in cheek to what I was saying of course...

He did annoy me. I found his body language really irritating. But he was a much better and more effective  player than I wanted to give him credit for....

To go over very well trodden ground, for me all the things that I felt he didn't do so well - mark him out as a Steve Mc 'oh Chrissy top man' main player. Not a Frank get every ounce of ability squeezed out for the team. That's my opinion and I will stick to it regardless of statistics, facts, argument or validity. Which is my god-given right as an armchair fan.

Are you by any chance a forward? The annoyance makes sense now ? You've played way too much alongside the Martin-esque forwards methinks? ?

He was the main man under Stevey Mac because we didn't have anyone else - When he got injured we fell apart (arguably) - Now admittedly he probably wouldn't be - But I don't want to write off a guy who could still add something for us (ignoring anything in the past, every player should have a clean slate every season for me)

[TuffLuff]

13 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

40 years and counting. And as an aside, I can honestly say I have never dived, ever.

There was a large element of tongue in cheek to what I was saying of course...

He did annoy me. I found his body language really irritating. But he was a much better and more effective  player than I wanted to give him credit for....

To go over very well trodden ground, for me all the things that I felt he didn't do so well - mark him out as a Steve Mc 'oh Chrissy top man' main player. Not a Frank get every ounce of ability squeezed out for the team. That's my opinion and I will stick to it regardless of statistics, facts, argument or validity. Which is my god-given right as an armchair fan.

Although I don’t necessarily agree about the diving bit (there’s a difference between diving and going down under contact to point out to the ref that you are being constantly fouled), I do think there’s a point in this little comment, is that when one player is a top player within one managers system it for whatever reason winds up a section of support. If I’m 100% honest, and I can say it now he’s gone, but I didn’t like Vydra. That was in part because I don’t think did enough for the team as a no.10 and left the midfield and Nugent/the CF too much work to do, but also that he was Rowett’s golden boy and I thought it really got my back up. Especially the Nugent/Vydra ‘super partnership’ stuff, I found it especially horrible.

Point is. I think sometimes we all end up not liking a player with little reason, even sometimes the best ones.

[Remy the hare]

2 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

Although I don’t necessarily agree about the diving bit (there’s a difference between diving and going down under contact to point out to the ref that you are being constantly fouled), I do think there’s a point in this little comment, is that when one player is a top player within one managers system it for whatever reason winds up a section of support. If I’m 100% honest, and I can say it now he’s gone, but I didn’t like Vydra. That was in part because I don’t think did enough for the team as a no.10 and left the midfield and Nugent/the CF too much work to do, but also that he was Rowett’s golden boy and I thought it really got my back up. Especially the Nugent/Vydra ‘super partnership’ stuff, I found it especially horrible.

Point is. I think sometimes we all end up not liking a player with little reason, even sometimes the best ones.

I am / was / are a CM fan but he did go to ground far to easily at the end of the 15/16 season with just the slightest of touches and refs saw straight through it. I would be highly surprised to see him playing in a derby shirt again sadly as we’ve spent £5m on Waghorn.......

[cannable]

3 hours ago, TuffLuff said:

Point is. I think sometimes we all end up not liking a player with little reason, even sometimes the best ones.

There’s a gammonish obsession worldwide with body language and perceived work-rate.

Ozil was blamed for Germany’s capitulation against South Korea despite the fact he made three or four inch perfect crosses that weren’t converted. 

People don’t rate Martin because he’s slow and mardy. 

[Hathersage Ram]

2 hours ago, cannable said:

There’s a gammonish obsession worldwide with body language and perceived work-rate.

Ozil was blamed for Germany’s capitulation against South Korea despite the fact he made three or four inch perfect crosses that weren’t converted. 

People don’t rate Martin because he’s slow and mardy. 

Amongst many others 

[europia]

On 15/08/2018 at 10:20, 'Rambe33 said:

 

A move away now would be good for both the club and player. 

But maybe not good for his pocket. Rams Players are on good money and if I remember correctly, Mac gave CM a really juicy contract not that long ago. So maybe no incentive for the player to move.

Fair play to those like Blackman (who gets a a lot of unfair criticism) willing to go abroad to try and get first team football. Just an observation.....

[rynny]

1 hour ago, europia said:

But maybe not good for his pocket. Rams Players are on good money and if I remember correctly, Mac gave CM a really juicy contract not that long ago. So maybe no incentive for the player to move.

Fair play to those like Blackman (who gets a a lot of unfair criticism) willing to go abroad to try and get first team football. Just an observation.....

You mean like Martin did last season to Reading? And the season before to Fulham? 

[BramcoteRam84]

Maybe people don’t rate Martin because for a season and a half now (for whatever reason) he hasn’t performed. Or it’s not that people don’t rate him, but more he doesn’t fit the way Lampard wants to play. Waghorn and Marriott have been signed, both quick energetic and will make any press more effective than Martin would, Martin struggles with a pressing game, it’s just not his game. You have to play a certain way to get the best out of him, he has to be the focal point with everything going through him. At times it can be predictable and easy to stop because Martin has no pace. Certainly when we’ve come up against better teams Martin has been owned by the opposition centre halves, in particular the Chelsea and Scotland games he played in close proximity against Gary Cahill stand out, ok a different calibre of player but an example Martin would find it difficult if we ever moved up a division. Also, We had a system last year completely set up to accommodate Vydra, you’d have to do the same (but to a lesser degree) with Martin, I think we need to be more flexible.

Personally, I think we should move Jerome and Nuge on and keep Martin as our alternative to Waghorn and Marriott, but is that fair to the best centre forward Derby have had in 15+ years and would he want to be third choice? I doubt it.

The facts and stats back up what an outstanding player Chris Martin has been at this level - not even the staunchest Martin hater can deny it, but players move on and it just feels like he’s had his time here. Hope he gets a move where he can be first choice, settled and resurrect his career, but be prepared that if he does he’ll be banging in 15-20 goals with 5-10 assists for another team which will prompt many of you to say “should never have sold him”

[Hathersage Ram]

8 hours ago, rynny said:

You mean like Martin did last season to Reading? And the season before to Fulham? 

Oh and he really surpassed himself endeared himself to those supporters 

[RoyMac5]

25 minutes ago, Hathersage Ram said:

Oh and he really surpassed himself endeared himself to those supporters 

The Fulham fans liked him until we lured him away - oh no we didn't we just screwed up his loan! The Reading loan he became ill during and tried to continue to play through, plus change of managers.

You really are more obsessed with Martin-hating than Ninos and Toddy, didn't think it was possible.

Where is the respect for our players that Frank Lampard said was due, even to the ones he would rather moved on?! Which you don't know Martin is one of - he'd make a good job of playing 4-3-3 for FL and yes in a team would even press - that doesn't depend on pace. He's still the most football smart of our strikers too.

[rynny]

1 hour ago, Hathersage Ram said:

Oh and he really surpassed himself endeared himself to those supporters 

My post was in response to the dig that Martin is just happy to sit on his contract and not go out on loan, when that is exactly the opposite of what he has done. No mention of how good he was, how the fans felt about him or anything else.

[i-Ram]

56 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

The Fulham fans liked him until we lured him away - oh no we didn't we just screwed up his loan! The Reading loan he became ill during and tried to continue to play through, plus change of managers.

You really are more obsessed with Martin-hating than Ninos and Toddy, didn't think it was possible.

Where is the respect for our players that Frank Lampard said was due, even to the ones he would rather moved on?! Which you don't know Martin is one of - he'd make a good job of playing 4-3-3 for FL and yes in a team would even press - that doesn't depend on pace. He's still the most football smart of our strikers too.

There was never much fan like nor love for Martin at Fulham Roy. Don’t make things up to suit your argument.  My son, and some mates, are staunch Fulham fans, and even before he opted to down tools most wanted to send him back.  I accept their Manager liked him.

[Comrade 86]

12 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

There was never much fan like nor love for Martin at Fulham Roy. Don’t make things up to suit your argument.  My son, and some mates, are staunch Fulham fans, and even before he opted to down tools most wanted to send him back.  I accept their Manager liked him.

Fair comment. My Fulham mates were pretty divided. Some felt he didn't want to be there and loathed him for it, some felt he was a good player and that Derby, not Chris, caused the issues. In any case, it's quite telling that Jokanovic wanted him at the club. Unfortunately, this debate seems to have polarised into 'Martin is exceptional' and 'Martin is rubbish' schools of thought whereas the truth falls somewhere between the two. I think he still has plenty to offer but I accept that he has to prove that to the manager and many naysayers on here. Whether he'll get that opportunity remains open to doubt as recent signings seem to suggest that Frank is not convinced. I guess we'll have to wait and see. 

[i-Ram]

I personally hope Chris moves on because l think his time is done here; and he must know it too. I hope he finds a club that suits his qualities, and a fan base that takes fully to him.

l am really appreciative of the job he did for us 2013-2016, and in his pomp he clearly can perform as a top-end Championship striker.  He gave me some most most enjoyable times, although that is not to say that at times he didn’t frustrate me too with some of his antics.

He has said himself before that he needs to be loved and settled to perform at his best, and his record proves that with a couple of stand out periods whilst at Norwich under Lambert and with us Rams under Mac1. The rest of his career record though isn’t very impressive.

Hopefully somewhere out there is a good new fit for him and his family, and if he is ill then I wish him a speedy recovery.