DCFC1388 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 1 hour ago, brady1993 said: Before you can declare this kind of thing you'd have to define what an average number of assists per game is for a wide player at this level. The highest number of assists you see for the 10th best player for assists over the past 5 seasons is 9 suggests any player who gets into double figures has been one of the most productive players in the league in terms of assists. Expecting 10+ assists a season as some kind of minimum is frankly silly. It isn't silly at all, it is my personal opinion that a winger should be able to get 1 assist in 4 games, it's like saying you don't expect them to get double figures in goals? They should be getting double figures in at least goals or assists. Last season for example 7 players reached double figures for assists, 6 of those 7 play in attacking positions either as wingers or secondary strikers. The only one who doesn't play in that position was Hourihane who plays centre mid. Our top assists last season was also our top scorer in Ince with 8, no wonder we struggled. Aluko, Adomah, Hoolahan, Lawrence, Cairney, McCleary, Watkins, Knockaert, Costa, Ritchie, Kachunga, Jota, Forestieri, Edawrds, Robinson all either got double figures for either goals or assist's - I don't think it's too much to expect our wingers/attacking mids to be in that list, only Ince would've made it last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rample Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Looking for how much his transfer to Wednesday was (£500k plus an additional £500k if promoted) and found this gem: "Winnall was targeted with online abuse after making the switch to Wednesday from Barnsley in January. A Peppa Pig toy was thrown in his direction from the crowd on Saturday" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 2 hours ago, Saity said: What is it with people and stats ...do you not watch the game then??stats are exactly that stats but I would never recommend a player based on stats alone it's just part of the equation ....if JR is that good why do so many fans get really frustrated with his end product then?? or should I say to them sitting near me it's ok he's got good stats lol.....look and see for yourself ...as I've said before I like JR because he tries very hard but lacks quality and end product ...end of What is the best way to counter claim an opinion that he does not have an end product? There are 2 options, give an opinion that he does produce or back up that opinion with stats. People are giving you stats to back up their opinion, not the other way round. Giving stats is a better judge than a "well he isn't very good because I saw it with my own eyes" argument. But hey that is just my opinion, feel free to disagree with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnigmaRam Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Opinions are like arse holes, everyone has one, stats are facts that aren't biased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coneheadjohn Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 All the Wendies I know love Winnall,not a target man doesn't play on the last mans shoulder and have killer pace but works his bum off and always gets in the right place. They all firmly believe it's purely down to the FF incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Rample said: Looking for how much his transfer to Wednesday was (£500k plus an additional £500k if promoted) and found this gem: "Winnall was targeted with online abuse after making the switch to Wednesday from Barnsley in January. A Peppa Pig toy was thrown in his direction from the crowd on Saturday" He'll fit in well then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papahet Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Yet Wednesday have the option to make Butterfields loan a permanent deal, seems odd we don't with Winnal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinspain Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, Papahet said: Yet Wednesday have the option to make Butterfields loan a permanent deal, seems odd we don't with Winnal. And he can play against us ?. Doesn't sound very plausible does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 6 minutes ago, richinspain said: And he can play against us ?. Doesn't sound very plausible does it? He can't play against us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 26 minutes ago, Papahet said: Yet Wednesday have the option to make Butterfields loan a permanent deal, seems odd we don't with Winnal. Could be that Wendies wanted to sign Butterfield and Winnall was thrown in the mix to make a loan deal an option due to him having a training ground punch up with the clown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S8TY Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 2 hours ago, rynny said: What is the best way to counter claim an opinion that he does not have an end product? There are 2 options, give an opinion that he does produce or back up that opinion with stats. People are giving you stats to back up their opinion, not the other way round. Giving stats is a better judge than a "well he isn't very good because I saw it with my own eyes" argument. But hey that is just my opinion, feel free to disagree with me. Yes I disagree...stats give you a portion of the player what stats don't tell you is does player get in space or find space does player create space for others does player take ball into space with first touch does player look/ scan the pitch before receiving enhancing decision making after getting the ball...e.g. Make quicker decisions is a player good in transition is a player good playing through the 3rds ...and counter attacking with pace can a player retain possession in tight areas... i could go on and on ...none of these are stats based yet not based on opinion either ...when you watch you can see yourself ... ill give you an example... i went to watch Southampton v Portsmouth youth game very recently and there was a lad there who's scored 5 goals in 2 games against Fulham and Bournemouth ...not one scout followed it up...although his stats were good for a striker as a player he wasn't the one who stood out ...far from it in fact ...not all opinions are based on non facts that's all I'm saying and regarding our Johnny I believe he's quite average and doesn't deliver ...I will confirm now though that when I watch us I'm cheering him not criticising him because I love DCFC and want him to do well ...I just think he's had enough time here and we need better...he came as a striker and I for one welcomed the signing but I think he hasn't particularly impressed especially over the last season or so although he seems a top bloke ...that's all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 5 minutes ago, Saity said: Yes I disagree...stats give you a portion of the player what stats don't tell you is does player get in space or find space does player create space for others does player take ball into space with first touch does player look/ scan the pitch before receiving enhancing decision making after getting the ball...e.g. Make quicker decisions is a player good in transition is a player good playing through the 3rds ...and counter attacking with pace can a player retain possession in tight areas... i could go on and on ...none of these are stats based yet not based on opinion either ...when you watch you can see yourself ... ill give you an example... i went to watch Southampton v Portsmouth youth game very recently and there was a lad there who's scored 5 goals in 2 games against Fulham and Bournemouth ...not one scout followed it up...although his stats were good for a striker as a player he wasn't the one who stood out ...far from it in fact ...not all opinions are based on non facts that's all I'm saying and regarding our Johnny I believe he's quite average and doesn't deliver ...I will confirm now though that when I watch us I'm cheering him not criticising him because I love DCFC and want him to do well ...I just think he's had enough time here and we need better...he came as a striker and I for one welcomed the signing but I think he hadn't particularly impressed although he seems a top bloke ...that's all I know that stats do not give the full picture, the part that has been disagreed with is he doesn't deliver. They have then used stats to back that up. Again, the stats show he has assisted more goals in his Derby career than any other player has n the same period (yes there are players during that time that have not played as many games as JR) In the last 3 seasons only 1 person has finished above him with assists in each season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinspain Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 2 hours ago, Animal is a Ram said: 1 hour ago, rynny said: He can't play against us Derby do not have the option to buy Winnall also he can't play against SWFC. Vice versa with JB. I read that as SWFC have the option to buy Butterfield and that he can play against Derby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B4ev6is Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Loan deals they cant but i reckion we could say to shiffield wednesday if you want buttfield we want cash plus players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Saity said: Yes I disagree...stats give you a portion of the player what stats don't tell you is does player get in space or find space does player create space for others does player take ball into space with first touch does player look/ scan the pitch before receiving enhancing decision making after getting the ball...e.g. Make quicker decisions is a player good in transition is a player good playing through the 3rds ...and counter attacking with pace can a player retain possession in tight areas... Actually they can - Depends if those stats are being tracked or not - All it takes is for people to count them - And some of those above can be proxied from other stats For example - I consider myself to have enhanced decision making - However my ball skills, fitness and overall ability let's me down somewhat - Chance creation and pass completion are much more valuable things to look at because they show the effect not the cause - Which highlights the problem that statistical analysis was designed to try and combat - A player can 'look classy' and have zero end product Check out whoscored.com for all the stats which the experts in the game (OPTA) think are important in analysing the qualities of a player Very few people judge on stats alone - However if you have an opinion it is stronger if the stats back up that opinion - Weaker if they don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S8TY Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 1 hour ago, richinspain said: Derby do not have the option to buy Winnall also he can't play against SWFC. Vice versa with JB. I read that as SWFC have the option to buy Butterfield and that he can play against Derby. That's a shame as I think Winnall could do well for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S8TY Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 34 minutes ago, cheron85 said: Actually they can - Depends if those stats are being tracked or not - All it takes is for people to count them - And some of those above can be proxied from other stats For example - I consider myself to have enhanced decision making - However my ball skills, fitness and overall ability let's me down somewhat - Chance creation and pass completion are much more valuable things to look at because they show the effect not the cause - Which highlights the problem that statistical analysis was designed to try and combat - A player can 'look classy' and have zero end product Check out whoscored.com for all the stats which the experts in the game (OPTA) think are important in analysing the qualities of a player Very few people judge on stats alone - However if you have an opinion it is stronger if the stats back up that opinion - Weaker if they don't You can only go so far with stats and yes it may paint some of the picture but not the whole picture .. you say you can get stats on a player naturally finding space as opposed to a player who doesn't find the space ...that is only achievable by watching not by stats ....stats is purely another area to analise a player but is only a fraction of the picture ...when a player receives a ball does your player create space or close the space you can't do that by stats you have to see the whole pitch/ area ...and that goes for several other aspects ...does the player play the correct ball ...finding a team mate counts as a completed pass but what if a different pass could open up play and create a chance for another player ...it's endless but can only be seen by watching ...I do agree stats including opta stats are interesting but not everything as you say yourself... The fitness side nowadays is much different as is monitored more accurately and can tell how far a player has run his heart beat and several other cardio values and also I've seen equipment / cameras used now to measure power and sprint speed and jumping and changing direction ...some of it seems over the top but none the less it's being used as the game is definitely more advanced coaching / physio wise ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 1 hour ago, richinspain said: Derby do not have the option to buy Winnall also he can't play against SWFC. Vice versa with JB. I read that as SWFC have the option to buy Butterfield and that he can play against Derby. That is how it reads but I think he used the wrong term. This is from the official site, I trust them more than this guy. Both players will be unable to face their parent clubs under the terms of the loan agreement. https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2017/08/rams-land-winnall-from-owls-as-butterfield-moves-north Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinspain Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 2 minutes ago, rynny said: That is how it reads but I think he used the wrong term. This is from the official site, I trust them more than this guy. Both players will be unable to face their parent clubs under the terms of the loan agreement. https://www.dcfc.co.uk/news/2017/08/rams-land-winnall-from-owls-as-butterfield-moves-north Yes, agree with you totally. (Mark it in your diary, it's not often there are two of us on here who agree ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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