TuffLuff

Brilliant!

49 minutes ago, angieram said:

 

I’ll say this here as don’t think it’ll go over well on the main parts of the forum at the minute (and tbh I can’t be bothered with ‘debates’ atm. But there’s something to be said about the club being patient and seeing what the lay of the land will be in the next few seasons. That’s not to say ‘don’t get in the champ’ but I do think we are at the very start of a huge rebuild and our fans do need to realise where we are and it’s going to take time.

2 hours ago, David said:

 

After years of them claiming we stole all their chants, they might be needing ‘they docked us 21 points’ quite soon…

Was saying to my Wednesday supporting mate at the weekend, that there are going through a lot of parallels with what we went through, once Morris had run out of road.  

Anyway, got to send him this today. They are currently in ‘form a protest group which confuses most of the fan base’ stage

Soon to be followed by a secondary protest group because some fans don’t agree with the aims of the first protest group. Then the first group vote out the spokesperson for their group because they disagree with something they’ve said, which then sparks a third group to appear who are once again unclear in their aims.

5 hours ago, Leicester Ram said:

Sure this won’t be popular but I think Warne should have until Xmas to have us in the top six. I would call myself pro-stability rather than pro-Warne and I understand why so many of the fans have turned - we haven’t improved as quickly as any of us would want and we’re currently not good enough going forward.

But I’d say he deserves longer to fix that than it looks like he’s going to get.

My concern is that the fanbase seems to think that a change of manager could get us into the top two and speed up our promotion, I think that’s wrong - the top two is gone already imo and having another new manager coming in isn’t going to speed up our timeline. 

How many times this past decade have we sacked a manager because we thought it would get us promotion quicker? Look where we are now. I think that the fanbases expectations have been damaged by that and we’re now turning on managers quicker than we should.

If people are being real with themselves, how many of you are Warne out because you’re panicking that we’ll be in League One again next season? It’s short-termism. As much as Ipswich spent a few seasons more than they’d like in League One, they get promoted the right way and are reaping the benefits now.

Sacking another manager early into the season isn’t doing things the right way. Said this before but the day after the Villa playoff final, we had a squad made up of seven managers different signings. Whereas in 13/14, McClaren inherited a unified, hungry dressing room all signed by one manager.

Chopping and changing is what got us into this mess, we’ve just let a manager shape our squad and now we’re going to get rid of him before the halfway point of the season?

I see a lot of people talking about the top two - I thought that was unlikely after the first five games, it was an overhauled squad which was still adding players who were going to be in the starting XI (Fornah, John-Jules, Nyambe). It didn’t look cohesive and I didn’t think we’d have a good enough start to put together an automatics push. So far, that looks like an accurate assessment. 

Part of why I’ve had patience with Warne is that I think we were closer to starting from scratch than it looked on paper. I agree that the 5 at the back fiasco isn’t a good look but I don’t think the transition from this season to last season is as straightforward as some people make it out. That is partly Warne’s fault as he tried to change our system but I didn’t see many people on here this summer disagreeing with him switching to the back five/signing Sonny Bradley - it you were one of the five or so posters on here doing that, don’t quote this letting me know; I don’t give a toss

However, I think there is now a legitimate argument as to whether he sees out the season as I don’t think we’ve improved as quickly as anyone would like after that slow start. I would have said he has until the end of the season a month back so I’ve now sped that up to an assessment at Xmas

I’m personally disappointed with how quickly the fans have turned on Warne. Warne certainly deserves until Xmas to try to turn this around but the fans may drive him out; I don’t think that’s the sign of a healthy club, that decision should lie with Clowes and he shouldn’t be pressured into creating more turbulence at an already very turbulent club to satisfy the mob.

I will always be anti-booing the team/manager, our role at games should be as supporters and I think booing/chanting at Warne is more akin to acting like a customer.

And when people’s complaint is the football isn’t entertaining enough, you are definitely a customer rather than a supporter.

I don’t buy into this idea that we need to see entertaining football but what we do need is effective football.

My concern with Warne is I don’t think he knows how to get this team scoring 2+ goals per game regularly - as far as I’m concerned, the football can be as ugly as a sunburnt Susan Boyle as long as we’re scoring goals and winning games.

Fully agree with all this, I think a lot of fans don’t realise that this isn’t a simple transition and the job Warne and Clowes have been doing since summer isn’t an easy one. It’s not a case of just getting this club back in the championship, it’s about us rebuilding an identity and it won’t happen over night.

Hence why I was trying to say earlier that about Warne needing to be stronger in his intents. The captaincy issue (imo) and the formation issue showed possibly a willingness to not be stubborn and worked for a few games, but I don’t think it’s worked in the longer term and has moved away from him putting his mark on that side, which is why we are seeing this uninspiring football. It’s arguable that the  players are in two minds about what they are doing much like Warne and his backroom staff are. 

1 hour ago, sage said:

Bold - Contradictions

Italics - Strawman nonsense

Underlined - He did play and was awful. 

Bold and underlined - If he hasn't done that already, he should stick to managing the Dog and Duck

Bold- I’m sorry is it? FWIW, McGoldrick was a good footballer but I didn’t find him full of ‘character’ either on the pitch. I’m saying that without him it’s showing how much those goals covered up for the others. I think your just trying to undermine my point here tbh

Italics- that’s my opinion of what I saw in the moment. I don’t think it’s someone standing up for his team, it’s more just getting frustrated and having a strop. I didn’t think it was a good thing for a captain to go do or be seen doing. This is something that has been shared past our fanbase and has helped no one.

Underlined- Im talking about an actual run of games to get him in the side. We’ve quite obviously not seen the best of him yet and we lack leaders on the pitch. For all this ‘nonsense’ talk, can you honestly say you can see leaders/characters in this derby side?

Bold and underlined- Again I think you’re just passing off my point here.

I get im of the minority opinion of the ‘online’ fans and  not expecting everyone to agree but I’m just trying to put a different perspective on all this because frankly I find the Warne out brigade a bit boring and a bit naive. It largely puts me off posting at the minute tbh, I don’t think I’m spot on with everything I post, it’s more about offering debate which I don’t think many are interested in.

I think getting rid of Warne now is the exactly the same problem as what was happening under Morris. Just for example, Warne goes then what? New manager who suddenly has Roseniors players, Warne’s players then a few former youth players. Can’t bring in his own players, probably doesn’t have a budget to reshuffle in January. Again you are left in the Morris era scenario of managers having players they won’t want and can’t shift.

The crucial part of what happens next for Warne will be the impact Ward and Elder make, also I believe the introduction of Bradley and a fit John-Jules may be the answer to his woes but I think we need to see if it’s going to happen. Again, I probably need to lane clear to you that it’s just my opinion. 

At the same time I think there is stuff Warne is doing wrong and everything is ultimately his decisions. When I talk about a lack of characters/leaders that is on him in the end and may be a big factor in his downfall. I think tomorrow is a big night in his tenure as Warne and the players need to show a statement of intent, I’d be more on the Warne out side if we get more of our previous performances even if we scraped through and won 1-0 tbh. I want to see us start having control of the home games.

I’m still pro-Warne, as much as I was at the start of the season. I think the players as a collective have a lot to answer for, and I don’t mean it as they aren’t trying or good enough, I just find them characterless and especially the ones Rosenior signed up. I think there’s a group of players there who have obviously not been resigned by other clubs because they were decent squad players but don’t consistently put in enough good dominating performances over a season. Ultimately I would put the likes of Bird and Sibley in a similar boat. Like last season, how much did we rely on McGoldricks goals? Yes, Warne has had a couple of transfer windows but they are players who are also taking up his budget and are difficult to shift. I said a few weeks ago but I’m reminded of the early Clough years in that he has players he needs shift but can’t until contracts run out, I still think that’s the case and if Clowes gets rid of Warne now I doubt we’d see a quick fix (and even if there was I’m not convinced we are in a position to compete in the championship just yet).

Thats not to say Warne hasn’t made mistakes, he had and continues to do so. The biggest was making Hourihane captain and the process he proudly told everyone about. I don’t think it helped the mentality and gave the players too much power in that moment when he’d presumably lined up the captaincy for Sonny Bradley. When I saw the video of Hourihane with the fans, I get the impression he’s I’m essentially saying ‘it’s not our fault’ as players and it didn’t fill me with confidence as a captain that the players fully behind what Warne is trying to do. It’s a lot to take from that video after a loss, but I’m just going on his body language and what he’s saying. I don’t think it’s a good look

I think he needed to bring Bradley into his 11 before now, which is a difficult decision due to the form of the defence but I think he needed his players with a fresh mentality in his 11. I don’t think he’s put enough of his stamp onto the squad just yet. Some of that has been because of the injuries to Ward and Elder as well, but I think the big thing is he’s missing is his leader on the pitch. Do we have anyone who’s really pointing fingers, getting others riled up or wanting to win? I don’t see it at the minute and I haven’t for a good while. 

It’s ultimately the mentality of the players to me, and Warne has to take the brunt of that. Tomorrow is huge for Warne’s future and I’ll be really interested to see what team he puts out, but I hope he is willing to have a bit of a reset rather than this wishy washy approach of having his style of play but having a formation that is trying to keep everyone happy. I think it’s time for Warne to set out a side and formation that he wants to work and bypass the players it doesn’t suit

2 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

I guess that's a no?

A few reviews appearing on the Amazon page, and I though this was interesting on the preview page

I guess it must have a fair bit about the car crash shenanigans?

I guess so! Although judging by Twitter it looks like Amazon may have buggered up the pre order and people are still waiting for books.

Im intrigued by it still but may wait a couple of weeks and see what the reviews say.

I think the preview probably shows the issue with doing something so quickly after that time. Yes you want people to speak whilst it’s fresh but no one there has anything to gain by being quoted in it and I imagine some who we’d want to hear something from are under NDA’s

Did anyone pick this up on preorder or since it was released?

10 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

There's absolutely no reason why Brown couldn't have replaced Collins with 30 minutes left to go. Collins was absolutely useless today.

I think you missed my entire point, purposefully, so it’s maybe best to leave it there.

27 minutes ago, Jubbs said:

Could see Clowes getting quite angry with Warne for his non existent youth policy. What's the point in Clowes spending millions a year on a Category A academy if Warne is going to give them 2 minutes in the Papa Johns Trophy? Frustrates me to no end.

Warne raised a good point pre game about not throwing youth players in when they aren’t ready and actually you can argue that it’s not had that many benefits over the last few seasons. Did it benefit Bird, Sibley, Whittaker or Knight to be seen as first team regulars before they were 21? Other clubs with top academies dont scatter their side with young players, they might have one or two who can learn around good players, so it’s more about waiting until a player is ready.

Also maybe consider that the ones who would have come through now (Ebiowei, Kellyman, Gordon plus!) we’re are sold off and the U21’s had a dreadful time of it last season. Are we better to let the 17/18 years olds try and have a more normal season, we are probably better letting players like Robinson be around a more settled environment rather than pushing them into the first team environment right now.

Sorry to jump on a bit of a random comment, we all want academy players going into the first team but I think there’s a lot more to consider than just throwing young players in for the sake of it.

Interesting that Garry Cook is Birmingham CEO now…

25 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I think Vickers (GK), Bradley (CB), Nelson (RCB), Ward (RWB) and Elder (LWB) were his top priorities in each of their positions.

I think we missed out on several CM, AM and CF (for either 3412 or 3421) targets before settling on Fornah, Washington, Waghorn and John-Jules.

I think it raises an interesting point that only Nelson so far has had considerable game time up to now in your first group. Ward and Elder especially need to be ready and available coming out of the international break.

6 minutes ago, sage said:

Rosenoir and Jewell...oops 

Ha, sorry. I mean you can compare and you are correct the squads (and league) is relevant, I was aware whilst writing down my thoughts that I was blathering a bit so I probably came across as flippant in places to avoid a ted talk!

But what I’d say is we look at players like Smith, Hourihane, Bird, Forsyth, NML, Barkhuizen, Collins and say we should be good enough. BUT how many of those players hit a good consistency over 46 games? The stand out player was McGoldrick and I think we probably need to say that McGoldrick ability covered up that groups lack of consistency. I think we see that this season with all of them tbh, aside Bird and Fozzy who I think have made a step up. All those players are great on their day, but as we saw last week they can look wanting in the space of a few days. I think Clough and Warne inherited players similar in that reapect, as in having a set of good players on their day but we didn’t see it over a season. Then you can only really offload them once their contracts expire and you end up having to make a short term decision (ie maybe the Washington and Waghorn signings) that could impact another signing in January for example.

I don’t want to sound like I’m letting Warne off the hook, but when we are discussing rebuilds I just want to point out how long it took Clough to get us competitive and think about how much chopping and changing happened to his squads before he nearly got a side that could play how he wanted to play.

23 minutes ago, sage said:

If you can't compare Clough and Jewell, what's the point of this thread?

Warne was left with a far more competitive team with a squad that doesn't need to be cut for financial reasons.

No comparison.

 

If you can’t compare Clough and Jewell?

42 minutes ago, TomTom92 said:

Fair points raised by yourself, but assuming we don’t go up but finish top 8 this season. Do you.. going off what you’ve currently seen with Warne trust him next summer?

Depends who you saw as the main targets over the summer tbh. Of the players we signed and have played regularly so far, Id want more Nyambe, Fornah and Wilson’s who are in the right age frame and would suit Warne’s style of play more and less of Washington and Waghorn who are short term fixes.

BUT, although I’m more positive than most, I do think we will be ok this season if John-Jules comes good. Pretty much all our strikers are ok for a bit but no one is convincing enough over a season.
 

Actually, I’d maybe say that about the majority of Roseniors players and why we are a bit in the situation we are, good players but a lack of consistency and hence why no one else was in for them last season

This isn’t another thread to lambast Warne with, but I just wanted to add onto something I’ve thought about since posting in Curtain’s thread earlier. Who, out of those we signed in summer, would you believe were the top of Warne’s target list? Considering the profile Warne looks for and what has arrived.

Im starting to wonder whether the issues behind recruitment are maybe similar to what Nigel Clough experienced when he replaced Jewell.

Jewell spent two transfer windows bringing in a lot of players designed to challenge in the Championship and used up a lot of resources doing so. Jewell eventually leaves a defeated man and is replaced by Clough who has the job of rebuilding the club under a budget, which sounds pretty similar to now. I’m not really comparing Rosenior and Jewell here, I’m more comparing Clough and Warne and what the jobs they had to do. Warne and Clough were given decent players on paper, but if they aren’t your players and you’re on a budget then you may need to shift them before bringing in a player you want. Which proves difficult because not everyone wants to pay a fee for someone over 30.

So how much has that impacted summer recruitment this time? For example if we wanted a wide midfielder, but they see NML, Barkhuizen, Sibley, Wilson, Ward and others who can play those roles ahead of you then they have to consider if they will get the playing time you want? How long did it take Clough to shift out Jewel’s players and then his own stop gap signings like Nathan Tyson? 3/4 seasons? It wasn’t until he got Keogh and Bryson that he got players who he could build a young squad around. 

Looking back into now, we have a budget which is ‘competitive’ but presumably we aren’t blowing everyone else out of the water either. So consider Rodrigues, May and Smith who we were heavily linked with over summer. We might have the budget, but if Oxford or whoever can match it and offer more playing time then it becomes a serious conflict about who you sign for. Again add in that if you are a 24 year old and you see a 30-32 year old playing in your position then do you expect to play every week?

Although I’m getting there in a roundabout fashion, the point that I think I’m trying to make is that we aren’t in a position to be able to go out and get our top targets just yet and it takes a lot for a manager to be able to do it. At the minute we probably aren’t seen as the most attractive proportion either. Then when you don’t get your top targets, managers then have to make short term decisions which could impact you in the next window. That was the cycle Clough was in and it’s probably the cycle Warne is now in. Warne has a set of players he can do something with, it’s maybe just not yet ideally who he wants 

How do you define recover?

Best way to look at it I think is through the Clough years post the prem season. It probably took 3 years for Clough to bring in what you would consider his real ‘first choice’ targets and shape the side how he wanted to see it. After that it still took another 2 to shape those players in a settled system and could have taken another season before his sacking before we’d have seen them be a top side in the champ. 

So when you consider being on budgets and the market, Derby at the moment maybe not being a players first choice etc etc, I think you can realistically look at 5 years? For the squad to have a shape and to have a proper identity, so they are ready to challenge in the league above. 

Others things to consider is how long Ipswich were in League One, Sunderland too. Pompey and Bolton still down trying to build. The talk of it not being an easy fix isn’t just lip service, there should be nothing telling you that this was going to be a one season in league one. If we rush this then you risk doing what Sheffield Wednesday have become this season, cue a likely relegation and having to rebuild still.

Good question @Curtains, hope others put some proper consideration in to it

Oh also, I criticised Smith on Saturday but he proved me wrong tonight. Felt like Warne had probably had a word about passing forward and allowing himself to have a bit of swagger, which is something this whole side misses. Best performance for Derby so far, don’t think you’d find many better individual midfield performances in this league.

He’s improved the spine of the side to why we had before

     Wildsmith

Nelson       Cashin

Smith        Fornah

         Bird

        Collins

You’d expect Hourihane to make his way in most likely for Smith at some point, Sibley and Thompson being around it too. Can’t see that Bradley won’t force his way in at some point yoo.

Rosenior didn’t get this right in midfield last season, Warne struggled last year too. By bringing Fornah and Nelson in he’s complimented what was there before, but it’s also more balanced.0

I can perhaps be over critical of Bird on occasion, but his ability to play one touch football improves this side no end and that was the major difference to Saturday. As @jono’s thread said the other day, pass and move!

UNLEASH KOREY SMITH!

57 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Rosenior was the one who reset the Club. Warne is just next one down the line. Maybe there's some who didn't/don't like the idea of Warne's football long term?

Rosenior did not reset the club in the few months he was in charge Roy, he got a team together to start last season.

First time I’ve been able to get to a home game this season and first off I do believe you get a better perspective at games than what you do on RamsTV or the radio.

On RamsTV, I’ve seen a side who are trying to the right things but it coming off and felt they are being unlucky and it’ll all fall into place. At the game, I see a side who miss opportunities to pass and how important a split seconds hesitation is in terms of getting a opposition player out of position and being able to take advantage of the space created. I really like Smith as a footballer, but I saw yesterday how one footed he is and that it can slow the play down as he needs to get it on his right before passing. A few times the gap for Nyambe was lost because the ball didn’t get to him quick enough.

Smith wasn’t the only culprit, the forward line itself seem to lack any sort of nous or ability to anticipate what is going to happen in a phase of play. A ball comes across the box and Barkhuizen is behind the defender at an angle the player can’t possibly cross at, Waghorn generally running around no man’s land. We got in really good positions yesterday but players have to take care of the ball better, have composure and gamble on instinct a lot more than what we are doing.

The big thing I’d want to put across in this, is that players aren’t taking responsibility with the ball. Mendez-Laing in the first minute, the defender has handed it on a plate for him and he’s seen as our main threat. He’s through on goal and can’t get the ball out of his feet, can’t get away from the defenders and places a poor pass to Barkhuizen. Those chances set up the rest of the game, we miss and we continue to struggle to open a real opportunity until we started to look defeated around the 70th minute mark. NML isn’t the only one, I don’t see anyone who is getting hold of the ball, once again gambling on what is happening and the positions of the opposition players. Radio Derby pretty much summed it up in there very good post match coverage yesterday, have we really replaced McGoldrick and how much did his ability cover up for the rest of them?

From what I saw, I don’t see Warne as the issue here. Yes it’s ultimately his responsibility ofcourse. But I do see a style of play that is attacking and what is trying to get forward, but I thought the players let him down yesterday and I dare say that’s been the issue so far this season. But they don’t look clueless, and there’s a huge difference when a team is trying to do the right things and not because when you do the right things it eventually will fall into place.

My one big criticism of Warne is in his post match comments when he’s going ‘oh we played well and x played well’ and…I get what he’s doing in being a bit annoyed after Carlisle and then maybe trying to be over positive after yesterday to encourage the players, but you can’t pull the wool over Derby fans eyes and it’s something he needs to learn. I don’t mean this disrespectfully but we aren’t Rotherham and 18,000 fans might listen to your post match interview, at Derby you are going to get 50,000 at least and half of them know what they saw. You have to be truthful and think about how you want to say something because when it comes out wrong then it gets peoples backs up. We didn’t play bad yesterday, but we didn’t play well either and you have to at least admit that we need to play better just to appease those that are coming to home games. 

That’s my thoughts overall, I think the players need to take responsibility ultimately and I think Warne will get there but let’s be honest and say yesterday wasn’t good enough.