Out of sync?

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

Whilst I don't agree with the way the thread has been presented, it is fair to ask the question why the academy and junior teams all seemingly play in a different way to the first team. 

[Eoghan1884]

19 hours ago, HecMacTod said:

Food for thought from a new poster:

In the Covid season 2021 Paul Warne's Rotherham beat Derby County 1-0 at Pride Park (Rotherham possession 35%, Derby 65%, Rotherham passes 237, Derby 429, Rotherham passing accuracy 59% Derby 76%).

In the return fixture Rotherham won 3-0 (Rotherham possession 35% Derby 65%, Rotherham passes 260, Derby 488, Rotherham passing accuracy 57%, derby 77 %).

Fast forward to this season, using FotMob statistics, Paul Warne's Derby County are next to bottom (above Millwall) with 41.3% average possesion and next to bottom (above Millwall) with 244.7 accurate passes per match.

So despite having, on the face of it, better players than his 2021 Rotherham championship squad, Warne has not changed his tactics. He is either not interested in or believes he doesn't possess the necessary qualities in his team to play possession football. Fine you may argue, that's his choice as manager. And it is also fine that some supporters (but not all) don't like watching that style of football.

But in a recent interview for Rams TV under 18 coach Danny Maye talks about trying to get a style of play that develops players for the highest level...ready for the Premier League....not only about working hard, pressing but it's about dominating the ball. He goes on the say that they are often reaching 60/65 per cent possession.

The under 18s currently top a league that includes Manchester United, Manchester City and Liverpool.

What's the point of the academy playing this way if the first team is the complete opposite with a manager seemingly more obsessed with players “gassing out.”

Surely all teams at Derby County, at whatever level, should be consistent in their style of football.

Our local media, hoodwinked by Warne's homespun, folksy, Forest Gump waffle about bobble hats, his dog, his brother, his Benidorm mates, coffee, blah, blah, don't seem interested in asking about why Derby County play this way. Why is there not more emphasis on actually keeping the ball.

The under 21s now include the likes of Cruz Allen, Lennon Wheeldon and Niall McAndrew, all academy products, all now getting international recognition.

If you were their parent or agent, do you think (given the chance that is) their career will advance playing for a side managed by someone whose tactic in some matches is to play Ebou Adams, a whole-hearted and strong tackling individual but with the technical passing skills of a competent League One performer as the most advance midfield close to the strikers and yet the skillful imaginative  Kenzo Goudmijn as the most deep lying holding player despite having scored twice in previous matches.

It's a tactic which has puzzled Radio Derby ex-professionals Eric Steele, Darren Robinson and Malcolm Christie. Me too. Bonkers.

Accomplished midfield players such as Max Bird, Jason Knight and Louis Sibley have chosen to pursue careers elsewhere. Wonder why?

Sunderland midfield Dan Neil in an interview about new manager Regis Le Bris said: "He has definitely brought new ideas, new ways of playing, especially in possession.

"I feel like the way we are playing now is a lot more structured. Everybody knows their roles in and out of possession."

A BBC article adds: “There's no longer the 'pass to the attacking players and hope for the best' kind of mindset that seemed prevalent in the club's recent past.”

Sound familiar?

“Le Bris' style of play hinges on his midfield talent - Rigg, Bellingham and Neil - to create triangles of space on the pitch and build into an attack rather than a gung-ho approach.”

The Rams should be congratulated for upgrading their recruitment department, data analysis, and academy set-up.

Is Paul Warne interested or capable of adapting to the challenges ahead? Or will he stick to tested and tried methods which have brought him success in the past.

He deserves praise for getting Derby out of League One (although on his own admission it was a failure not to achieve that at the first attempt) and if he keeps the Rams in the Championship this season then again he will deserve praise.

But David Clowes and Stephen Pearce should already be utilising all the data available to them to ready move on to the next level.

You raise some good points, On your academy point though a lot of academies do not play the exact same way as their first team. Even Man city play a different way at u21 level, they've had less possession in 4 of their 5 wins except against us. We actually gave them the best game out of them 5 games and are the only team to score 2 past them. 

The main objective for academies is preparing players for first team football, we are getting players to have the same morals and ideology in their game but not necessarily the same play style, for example pressing hard, using set pieces well, Being rigid in formation without the ball and being positive and looking forward when we have the ball.

 

[Srg]

51 minutes ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

Whilst I don't agree with the way the thread has been presented, it is fair to ask the question why the academy and junior teams all seemingly play in a different way to the first team. 

Because Warne is actually a pragmatist. He sets teams up to beat the opposition using what he's got available. The OP in this thread seemed to point to us supposedly having better players than his Rotherham sides at this level... maybe, but he was doing well with Rotherham before he did leave for us. There's also a huge debate to be had over the quality of our actual team... if he had the players, I don't think we'd be setting up like this.

Just a classic case of Derby fan overrating our own squad and underrating others. We still have one of the smaller budgets and cheapest assembled squads in the league. We are set up to stay up, it's that simple.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

4 minutes ago, Srg said:

Because Warne is actually a pragmatist. He sets teams up to beat the opposition using what he's got available. The OP in this thread seemed to point to us supposedly having better players than his Rotherham sides at this level... maybe, but he was doing well with Rotherham before he did leave for us. There's also a huge debate to be had over the quality of our actual team... if he had the players, I don't think we'd be setting up like this.

Just a classic case of Derby fan overrating our own squad and underrating others. We still have one of the smaller budgets and cheapest assembled squads in the league. We are set up to stay up, it's that simple.

I think however much people overestimate our squad, more than few posters on here underestimate it. Yes it's not a playoff contending squad, but I think it is better than a squad designed to just about stay up. Lower mid table, but comfortably safe is my estimation of our squad based on what I've seen so far.

I also take the point on Warne being a pragmatist, but if we want our academy to create 'first team ready' players, it does make some sense for them to have some grounding in how the first team plays football. That isnt a controversial idea.

Edited yesterday at 09:01 by JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta

[ram59]

11 hours ago, Ambitious said:

Possession is a situational statistic, but some managers put more emphasis on it than others. It's not that Warne doesn't want possession, but he places a greater emphasis on other aspects. He is a manager that wants to move the ball forward quickly, he wants players to take risks, he wants to catch teams out of shape. 

Now, possession at an academy level is a lot more important because results are secondary to fundamentals. You have three stages: Foundation Phase (5-11), Youth Development Stage (12-16) and Professional Development (17+). The approach is always going to be factored on keeping the ball, playing out from the back, recycling possession, transitions and rotations that are more structured. 

When you get to the professional level, managers have to take all that information these players have been taught over years and weaponise it - both for and against. 99% of players are comfortable on the ball thanks to the coaching received at academy level, but when results become the focus then it's a completely different game. If we're going to extremes, Southampton have had more possession than Arsenal this season. Swansea have had more possession than Sunderland. When you put too much empahsis on it, my opinion is that it encourages safe, risk-free football that tends to be criticised for being too slow. 

I watched Eiran Cashin nearly break the League One record for the most passes made/played in a 0-0 draw with Shrewsbury under Rosenior - 138 (91.3%) - I can appreciate dominant, possession-based football but it would bring other frustrations. 

Excellently put, before they can play in control and quick, they need to be able to play in control. Once the youngsters have mastered control of the ball at a slower pace, then they can be encouraged to speed things up a bit. Not all will be able to make this jump and will fall by the wayside. 

Basically, they need to walk before they can run.

[Leeds Ram]

I think the OP suffers from not seeing what we're up against. We likely have one of the smallest budgets in the division right now and have just been promoted. Trying to dominate the ball, adapt a more open and flexible shape and be more aggressive going forward would see us get cut up at the back. It just wouldn't work unfortunately. 

We are structured and are very effectively organised. This makes us difficult to beat which as a newly promoted team should be our first priority. Personally, if you take the stats out of it, we can see this derby team as a wholly different beast to the one we were last year. If you can't detect a change in the style of play I'd suggest you've not been watching closely enough. We are far more aggressive off the ball, far quicker in the transitions, and are more inventive and capable when we have the ball. We in essence are an entirely different beast. 

Edited yesterday at 09:12 by Leeds Ram

[maxjam]

1 hour ago, Jourdan said:

I just think some of our fans are idealistic in the extreme and they are expecting the club to run against seasoned competitors while it’s still very much at the crawling stage.

I agree. 

I think some fans have short memories and think that we'll simply return to the heady days of MM spending his way in to the top six forgetting that prior to that we were under the more frugal ownership of GSE lurking around the bottom half of the table.

You only have to look at how much other teams have spent this season compared to us to realise that we're not shopping in the same market and any progress will be slow and steady.  Youth players will take time to advance through the system. We're relying on the excellent scouting of cheap, relatively unknown players alongside out of contract players to build a squad.  Anyone that wants to play attractive, controlled tippy-tappy football and compete with ex-PL squads better have some deep pockets.

Its probably worth listening to this short interview with DC again.  Some people hear 'competitive budget' and 'aiming to finish first' others hear 'good budget' and 'maintain the position in the Championship'.

Personally I am very happy with Paul Warne.  The mandate last season was to get promoted.  The mandate this season is to remain in the Championship.  The mandate for next season will be to finish a bit higher.  The fact that we seem to be going about things the right way - unearthing cheap foreign signings, playing better football than last season and everyone at Derby appears to be fighting for the club and each other is the icing on the cake. 

The next step on the path has to be outside investment, the top six is probably beyond us without it.  However, I am in no rush for this tbh, it has to be the right decision for the club and one that I'm sure that DC will agonise over.

[Archied]

18 hours ago, HecMacTod said:

Comments much appreciated and there is nothing wrong as football fans in agreeing to disagree.

Comrade 86: Not personally a fan of the manager or his style of football but not suggesting change right now, merely pointing out that the club ought to be thinking ahead, especially taking in account the current academy philosophy

Ditto for jcidaho although I agree with you re international break. Hate them. Ditto Gaspode

FindernRam: Respectfully disagree. I do expect our players to be able to hold the ball well against established Championship teams, especially now that we have Goudmijm, Ozoh and Osborn. By all means include long balls in your armoury but surely we can offer more. My feeling is that Warne just doesn't believe in the merit of that style of football.

Could the reason we have no real strike force is that the manager recruited Conor Washington (!!!!), recruited Corey Blackett-Taylor offered a new contract to James Collins (!!!!), send Tony Weston out on loan, seems dead set against giving Dajaune Brown a go and has a low possession and accuracy rate?

You say that some of these academy players maybe ready for action in two or three years “when we are back I the Prem” (let's hope so but-).

But what if they may be ready sooner? What if they are worth a punt (without going out on loan ) like Bird, Knight, Sibley, Cashin, Thompson, Buchanan, Ebosole, Ebiowei, Plange? Would he? Will he?

As for ex-players being “just armchair managers like us”, Darren Robinson has coached at several professional clubs and Eric Steele was on Steve McClaren and Alex Ferguson's coaching staff. Not a bad CV.

Yorkshire Ram: If we have one of the worst squads on paper in the division (sorry but don't agree with you here) but if we have, the manager was given a “competitive” budget by the owner.

If it is a bad squad, that's purely down to the manager and his signings. No one is suggesting we try and play like Manchester City (even Arsenal or Liverpool don't attempt that). As for where we are in the league right now (pointless from away games), that remains to be seen. Very low passing accuracy in some of the hard games.

MadAmster. Sorry no manager should be in a job just because he “deserves” it. He should be there because of the job he is doing and if he is capable of learning, adapting and improving.

FKANNorwichExile: Russell Martin's possession football got them promoted. Not just complaining that we're not winning the right way, but also pointing out that it's not compatible with the sort of players our academy is producing.

Archied: Yes I think he is the wrong man and I've put forward my reasons. But as jcidaho pointed out the international break is boring and everyone is entitled to an opinion. And the debate is fun!

So from that your saying possession football works in the championship but not in the prem ,,,,,,,, for 95% of clubs 

[YorkshireRam]

16 hours ago, HecMacTod said:

Yorkshire Ram: If we have one of the worst squads on paper in the division (sorry but don't agree with you here) but if we have, the manager was given a “competitive” budget by the owner.

If it is a bad squad, that's purely down to the manager and his signings. No one is suggesting we try and play like Manchester City (even Arsenal or Liverpool don't attempt that). As for where we are in the league right now (pointless from away games), that remains to be seen. Very low passing accuracy in some of the hard games.

It seems strange to almost dismiss the tangible yardstick that is our current league position, and follow up with a retort regarding a comparatively trivial statistic like passing accuracy?

The bit I can't quite ever get my head around is that playing a possession-based brand of football in a team like ours is inherently risky. Back in the McClaren days, the only teams that ever looked capable of beating us were the ones that utilised a low block and were defensively sound. We always used to struggle and tended to lose 1-0 to these sort of sides.

The majority of other teams in this league now have spent millions more than us on their squads, and have far more experience at this level. Trying to go toe-to-toe with them at their own game feels like we'd be on a hiding to nothing. Setting up pragmatically feels like we have a chance though. I really can't envisage how we'd have beaten Middlesbrough EXCEPT by playing this way? That was such a huge result in terms of morale and overall confidence, and it came from being super organised and defensively solid. These are traits always worth having in your team, and traits I'd actually currently value above how 'pretty' the football is.

 

 

[Castor]

13 hours ago, Ambitious said:

Possession is a situational statistic, but some managers put more emphasis on it than others. It's not that Warne doesn't want possession, but he places a greater emphasis on other aspects. He is a manager that wants to move the ball forward quickly, he wants players to take risks, he wants to catch teams out of shape. 

Now, possession at an academy level is a lot more important because results are secondary to fundamentals. You have three stages: Foundation Phase (5-11), Youth Development Stage (12-16) and Professional Development (17+). The approach is always going to be factored on keeping the ball, playing out from the back, recycling possession, transitions and rotations that are more structured. 

When you get to the professional level, managers have to take all that information these players have been taught over years and weaponise it - both for and against. 99% of players are comfortable on the ball thanks to the coaching received at academy level, but when results become the focus then it's a completely different game. If we're going to extremes, Southampton have had more possession than Arsenal this season. Swansea have had more possession than Sunderland. When you put too much empahsis on it, my opinion is that it encourages safe, risk-free football that tends to be criticised for being too slow. 

I watched Eiran Cashin nearly break the League One record for the most passes made/played in a 0-0 draw with Shrewsbury under Rosenior - 138 (91.3%) - I can appreciate dominant, possession-based football but it would bring other frustrations. 

Spot on - and the point about Sunderland - currently sit 1st with the 4th worst possession stats in the league. 

When Leicester won the premier league they had the third worst possession and the second worst pass completion rate.

Youth football is about developing everyone into being good on the ball, not how often we pass between centre backs.

[TomTom92]

Currently i'm happy with Warne and the job he's doing. Now if we lose the next 5, my opinion will be drastically different. Fickle? Yes, but i'm judging him on results this season.

In regards to having a streamline way of playing. Ideally that would be the way, but think we're 2/3 seasons away from having serious grumbles about that. 

[Comrade 86]

3 minutes ago, TomTom92 said:

Currently i'm happy with Warne and the job he's doing. Now if we lose the next 5, my opinion will be drastically different. Fickle? Yes, but i'm judging him on results this season.

[TomTom92]

12 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

I've always tried to be fair on Warne, my complaints have only come when things were looking bleak and our transfer business was poor IMO (excluding this summers). 

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Castor said:

Spot on - and the point about Sunderland - currently sit 1st with the 4th worst possession stats in the league. 

When Leicester won the premier league they had the third worst possession and the second worst pass completion rate.

Youth football is about developing everyone into being good on the ball, not how often we pass between centre backs.

Good point. Just change worst for least!

[HorsforthRam]

16 hours ago, Loughborough Ram said:

Because the majority of times Collins comes on, it's to protect a lead and his job is the batter the centre halves and pin them back.

Might be his job, not sure how that works when he’s often out on the wing and not where the centre halves are, giving away needless fouls and offsides 👀

Edited yesterday at 12:30 by HorsforthRam

[Comrade 86]

3 hours ago, TomTom92 said:

I've always tried to be fair on Warne, my complaints have only come when things were looking bleak and our transfer business was poor IMO (excluding this summers). 

Mate it was a joke. I appreciate you voicing the support, so don't take it the wrong way as I'm just trying to lighten the mood a tad.

[Donnyram]

19 hours ago, Ambitious said:

Possession is a situational statistic, but some managers put more emphasis on it than others. It's not that Warne doesn't want possession, but he places a greater emphasis on other aspects. He is a manager that wants to move the ball forward quickly, he wants players to take risks, he wants to catch teams out of shape. 

Now, possession at an academy level is a lot more important because results are secondary to fundamentals. You have three stages: Foundation Phase (5-11), Youth Development Stage (12-16) and Professional Development (17+). The approach is always going to be factored on keeping the ball, playing out from the back, recycling possession, transitions and rotations that are more structured. 

When you get to the professional level, managers have to take all that information these players have been taught over years and weaponise it - both for and against. 99% of players are comfortable on the ball thanks to the coaching received at academy level, but when results become the focus then it's a completely different game. If we're going to extremes, Southampton have had more possession than Arsenal this season. Swansea have had more possession than Sunderland. When you put too much empahsis on it, my opinion is that it encourages safe, risk-free football that tends to be criticised for being too slow. 

I watched Eiran Cashin nearly break the League One record for the most passes made/played in a 0-0 draw with Shrewsbury under Rosenior - 138 (91.3%) - I can appreciate dominant, possession-based football but it would bring other frustrations. 

Nailed it.  I personally find possession based football (often possession for the sake of possession & going nowhere) boring. Quite happy with the approach we are taking at the moment 

[RodleyRam]

Possession is all well and good and I can see the merits of better ball retention in relieving pressure. 

However, it's what you do with it that counts (matron alert) and our style of play has come on leaps and bounds this season. Pragmatic at times and brilliant out of possession but also exciting to watch when we have the ball. Slow, possession based play wouldn't have seen us score the goals we have this year and I would hazard a guess that our league position would be worse off as a result.

As for the academy style of play, Warne is something of a chameleon so it would be tricky to exactly match style of play throughout the club, we adapt week by week. The youngsters are being given the training to feel confident in possession of the ball, that's a good thing and perhaps the long term strategy is to bring these players though over time so that the first team style of play can focus more on increased possession whilst not losing the incisiveness we've seen at home this season.

For now anyone beating Warne with a stick made of stats looks a bit silly, what with the actual league table stats and all that.

[MadAmster]

On 14/10/2024 at 17:50, HecMacTod said:

MadAmster. Sorry no manager should be in a job just because he “deserves” it. He should be there because of the job he is doing and if he is capable of learning, adapting and improving.

 

Almost made the playoffs in his first season with a squad put together by Liam Rosenior. Then not allowed to pay any fees in the January window. Not a bad effort.

Automatic promotion in his second season. A season in which, again, we weren't allowed to pay fees meaning we could recruit 30 somethings who were out of contract and young players on loan. Again, not a bad effort.

Season 3. Limited budget which, it seems, he has spent well. 4 wins from 5 home games. The one we lost was, to a great extent, due to errors by the officials. You might argue we were lucky against Boro as they had the lion's share of the ball and pressed us back but we limited them to long distance shots. The one time they did get through us find the net, it was offside. We are not playing the same style as last season. Does that mean PW has learnt and adapted, using his experience at Rotherham to do so? IMO, yes. Away from home, we haven't been hammered by anybody and we've played the sides currently 1st, 2nd, 6th and 8th. All of whom have excellent home records this season. Again, not a bad effort.

Looking at the above, I might have been better saying "he doesn't deserve the sack/replacing" but that's mere semantics. If you take everything into account. 7th place, 2nd place, a reasonable start to season 3, the financial limitations, there's nothing to suggest he should be replaced.

You are completely at Liberty to disagree, forums would be boring if we all agreed all the time. Whatever terminology one chooses to use, PW does not warrant losing his job at the moment.

[Mucker1884]

On 14/10/2024 at 16:50, HecMacTod said:

Sorry no manager should be in a job just because he “deserves” it. He should be there because of the job he is doing and if he is capable of learning, adapting and improving.

 

I'm not sure I even understand that!

Given that there's only one man who has the final say (or 2, if you include resignation!)...

Perhaps that one man considers Warne to be doing a good job + considers him to be capable of learning, adapting, and improving.  Indeed, there be other attributes currently being considered by that same one man (I've not asked him!).   🤷‍♂️

Could it not be argued therefore, that said one man considers Warne to be "deserving" of his current employ as head coach, given all of his considered attributes.  Yer know, "Deserving" as a cover-all term for a long list of attributes?