Punching above our weight. What do you think would elevate us above mid table next season?

[May Contain Nuts]

4 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

There seem to be multiple topics on this sort of theme, so apologies if this has been covered before, but I know that Warne struggled with Rotherham in the Championship whenever he got them promoted

Was that because he faced a similar issue of having built a squad designed to compete in L1, which then was largely dismantled at the end of the season?

I looked at this around a year ago, can't really remember or be bothered to think about what it represented but it's a list of players and appearance numbers over the course of Warne's time at Rotherham. You lose some players, you gain some players, you have some players consistent over multiple seasons.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

4 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

There seem to be multiple topics on this sort of theme, so apologies if this has been covered before, but I know that Warne struggled with Rotherham in the Championship whenever he got them promoted

Was that because he faced a similar issue of having built a squad designed to compete in L1, which then was largely dismantled at the end of the season?

Correct....

I'd imagine that one of the reasons he came here was to be able to build a team that could compete in the championship.

Every other time he achieved promotion,his players were largely sold off without suitable replacements for the division.

This will be the first time he can actually start to compete and hopefully show his true ability to manage in the second tier.

Edited May 21 by kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong

[Simmo’s left foot]

I think the key to becoming established and aspiring to be pushing for a top six is keeping the group as a tight nit bunch, which was very obvious and contributed a lot to us getting over the line to promotion. More of that and astute signings is the way forward. 

[May Contain Nuts]

57 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Correct....

I'd imagine that one of the reasons he came here was to be able to build a team that could compete in the championship.

Every other time he achieved promotion,his players were largely sold off without suitable replacements for the division.

This will be the first time he can actually start to compete and hopefully show his true ability to manage in the second tier.

2018/19 Championship season:
Players kept after promotion from L1: 16 - 12 of who had made more than 25 appearances (8x 40 plus)
Players lost after promotion from L1: 8 - only 2 who had who made over 25 appearances

2020/21 Championship season:
Players kept after promotion from L1: 17 - 10 of who had made more than 25 appearances (7x 30 plus)
Players lost after promotion from L1: 3 - again only 2 of who had made more than 25 appearance

The idea that he's had his squad ripped apart every time he's gone up is nonsense.

Edited May 21 by May Contain Nuts

[sage]

10 minutes ago, Simmo’s left foot said:

I think the key to becoming established and aspiring to be pushing for a top six is keeping the group as a tight nit bunch, which was very obvious and contributed a lot to us getting over the line to promotion. More of that and astute signings is the way forward. 

It will be a challenge to add 8 or 9 players whilst keeping the squad ethic.

This may become more difficult in a higher division.

 

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Simmo’s left foot said:

I think the key to becoming established and aspiring to be pushing for a top six is keeping the group as a tight nit bunch, which was very obvious and contributed a lot to us getting over the line to promotion. More of that and astute signings is the way forward. 

Nothing like winning for keeping up squad morale.

[Animal is a Ram]

2 hours ago, May Contain Nuts said:

2018/19 Championship season:
Players kept after promotion from L1: 16 - 12 of who had made more than 25 appearances (8x 40 plus)
Players lost after promotion from L1: 8 - only 2 who had who made over 25 appearances

2020/21 Championship season:
Players kept after promotion from L1: 17 - 10 of who had made more than 25 appearances (7x 30 plus)
Players lost after promotion from L1: 3 - again only 2 of who had made more than 25 appearance

The idea that he's had his squad ripped apart every time he's gone up is nonsense.

You've invalidated that argument well.

I would argue this adds weight to the argument that the reason Rotherham yo-yo'd is because they couldn't do major surgery

[jimtastic56]

4 hours ago, sage said:

It will be a challenge to add 8 or 9 players whilst keeping the squad ethic.

This may become more difficult in a higher division.

 

Reports say Steve Cooper has turned down the offer of the Norwich job . Probably better to keep him away from the Championship . He has proved he can throw a bunch of players together and achieve relative success.

[DesertRam]

We need at least one and perhaps 2 top strikers, and a midfield general, and should be looking at the stats charts to find the

rest - no big names, just 26/27 yr olds, fit solid and reliable, with no major injuries,  loans  where possible 😆

[May Contain Nuts]

2 hours ago, Animal is a Ram said:

You've invalidated that argument well.

I would argue this adds weight to the argument that the reason Rotherham yo-yo'd is because they couldn't do major surgery

How many teams go up and do perform major surgery though? He added 8 then 9 new signings after each of the first two promotions

For 2021/22 he kept 13 players who were part of a successful League One promotion season and added 9 new players including the likes of West Harding, that keeper we're supposedly after, George Hirst who's done well at Ipswich, Josefzoon who we signed for £3m after a good spell at Rotherham & Lewis Wing - it's not ike he had a poor squad, he also had a number of players who've since established themselves as Championship players (Wiles, Barlaser), had Ladapo probably in his prime and a couple who've just stayed up with Sheff Weds.

I'd argue that this upcoming season is the most difficult he's had in his career, this past season the most straightforward 

Edited May 21 by May Contain Nuts

[Dave Mackay Ate My Hamster]

On 19/05/2024 at 22:29, IslandExile said:

"Punching above our weight"???!!!

We are Derby County. 

There are no such limits to what we can achieve 🐏 Believe. COYR.

Haha, of course IE, that's a given. I should've said " Punching above our weight - on paper, as a newly promoted team." But that wouldn't have made a racy title. Not that my original title was anything like racy. More soporific. 🙂

Edited May 21 by Dave Mackay Ate My Hamster

[Chopper]

What will elevate us? As it stands right now, I think we will be solid if unspectacular, we may struggle to convert periods of dominance in the game into goals. So if anything I'd say to would be a previously unknown player, who somehow hits the ground running and has 10 goals, winning us about 20 points in quick time before the opposition figure out what his skills are. All teams want those, but if its between that one and the "veteran defender 2 moves ahead of everyone on the pitch" I think the surprising striker will elevate us more.

[Dave Mackay Ate My Hamster]

Brentford incrementally hoisted themselves from relative obscurity by recruiting players on a data based model of analysing player attributes, buying those that excel in footballing stats in relation to their playing positions and then selling them on when, surprise, surprise they repeated their statistical strengths at a higher level. 

Whilst some may scoff at this data-based approach, they got far more right than wrong and they're now in the Premier League and have made a profit on players of well north of £100m.

Bigger Premier League teams can afford to buy "off the peg" and mostly need instant results. We need to learn some lessons from Brentford if we want to slowly work our way back to the promised land. Mel mostly messed up by cherry picking some of the best players from our rivals, then trying to crowbar them into our team, ignoring the fact that we played a different style from the team we bought them from.

We've a long way to go before we can dream of a similar renaissance, but be more Brentford. Player stats are by no means perfect, but can lead you to spend your money wisely, and hit the jackpot of resales on a fairly frequent basis.

The first stat we should concentrate on is players who regularly are able to play 40+ games a year consistently.  At least you're not buying a " Maradonna for 5 games a season ".

Every penny will count this season. We're fairly lean now, with little debt. Not a time for risks.....

[Rambam]

Why punching above our weight? 
We’ll be one of the top six supported clubs, in a fine stadium, pretty fanatical support. Great history. 
We’ve had our issues, but so have other clubs. We have a wonderful owner and are on an upwards trajectory. 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

1 hour ago, Rambam said:

Why punching above our weight? 
We’ll be one of the top six supported clubs, in a fine stadium, pretty fanatical support. Great history. 
We’ve had our issues, but so have other clubs. We have a wonderful owner and are on an upwards trajectory. 

Plus an excellent manager and coaching team.

[MadAmster]

23 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

There seem to be multiple topics on this sort of theme, so apologies if this has been covered before, but I know that Warne struggled with Rotherham in the Championship whenever he got them promoted

Was that because he faced a similar issue of having built a squad designed to compete in L1, which then was largely dismantled at the end of the season?

PW with Rotherham in the SBC.

1st time, relegated playing crap football

2nd time, same again

3rd time he had put together a better side playing decent football (source Rotherham forums at the time we poached him). He had them 8th after 9 games. All the sides above then had played 10. Win that game in hand and they would have gone 5th. He came to us and Rotherham ended up 19th. Just maybe, the 1st 2 seasons were more down to RUFC's inability to attract the right players? Both the results and the style were better 3rd time around...

IMO, forget anything he did at Rotherham. Derby is a totally different kettle of fish. Let's see what he can put together over the summer.

[Reggie Greenwood]

2 hours ago, MadAmster said:

PW with Rotherham in the SBC.

1st time, relegated playing crap football

2nd time, same again

3rd time he had put together a better side playing decent football (source Rotherham forums at the time we poached him). He had them 8th after 9 games. All the sides above then had played 10. Win that game in hand and they would have gone 5th. He came to us and Rotherham ended up 19th. Just maybe, the 1st 2 seasons were more down to RUFC's inability to attract the right players? Both the results and the style were better 3rd time around...

IMO, forget anything he did at Rotherham. Derby is a totally different kettle of fish. Let's see what he can put together over the summer.

I think the first relegation he was appointed late in the campaign and relegation pretty much nailed on any way. Happy to be corrected if wrong 

[MadAmster]

1 hour ago, Reggie Greenwood said:

I think the first relegation he was appointed late in the campaign and relegation pretty much nailed on any way. Happy to be corrected if wrong 

He took them up 3 times. #1 and #2 saw them immediately relegated. #3 was the season before last when we nicked him 9 games in.

IIRC, prior to the first promotion they did go down with him as gaffer as you describe

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, Reggie Greenwood said:

I think the first relegation he was appointed late in the campaign and relegation pretty much nailed on any way. Happy to be corrected if wrong 

I believe he was appointed care taker manager on 29/11/16 with the club sitting bottom on 7 points and 11 points away from safety.

They finished the season still bottom on 23 points and 28 points from safety.

So, it was quite early in the season and they had plenty of time to escape (but their positioned worsened under his charge). However, maybe the damage done was so severe that it would have been very difficult to recover from. I also stand to be corrected.

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, MadAmster said:

He took them up 3 times. #1 and #2 saw them immediately relegated. #3 was the season before last when we nicked him 9 games in.

IIRC, prior to the first promotion they did go down with him as gaffer as you describe

What isn't factored into the third season is the tendancy to see his sides fall away / have a big wobble toward the end of a season. It's been pointed out that the manager who replaced him had a worse PPG but there's a chance it could have happened anyway. They'll never have the squad depth to cover late season issues.

There's also every chance that they simply replaced Warne with a poorer manager. There are plenty of them, without it meaning he himself represents the upper echelons of football management.

I don't think being a League One promotion specialist means much in the grand scheme of things but it's clearly been beneficial to us to this point.

Edited May 22 by May Contain Nuts