Derby v Lincoln City

[DavesaRam]

31 minutes ago, On the Ram Page said:

Your reports almost appear as if you are auditioning for a role at the Derby Evening Telegraph, trying to find something, quirky or humorous to say. You probably have your computer set up to remind you to mention Sibley’s lack of minutes and don’t forget to mention getting the ball wide quickly and put crap crosses in. This is all in Warnes master plan for poor, boring performances?

You seem to forget that we play an opposition, who set up to deny us playing, entertaining. Of course, they pack the centre of the pitch to stop us playing through.

Do you honestly believe Paul Warne sets us up to play poorly, tells us not to pass to each other. 
 

You write as if you are on the training ground everyday and in the dressing room before games. The fact is you’re not and to be honest, in my opinion your knowledge of what tactics he wishes to employ are zero. I can’t be bother to write anymore about your sanctimonious rubbish. You may impress others on this site with your pronouncements but not me. 

I am a retired HGV driver, so i have no aspirations to work in the media, thank you very much. I just like to give my opinion, as does everybody else on this forum. It is what forums are for. All I want to do with this "verbosity" is express my frustration taht we are consistently underperforming while it being obvious that we can do so much better, and have proved it several times, only to go backwards once more.

And no, I don't think he sets the team up to play poorly, he sets the team up the way that he wants it to play. Which is what he should be doing. But ..... cast your mind back to last season, when he wanted to play a wing-back system , but didn't have the players to do it. Unfortunately, for whatever reason we didn't manage to recruit the players to enable his particular system. But that didn't stop him trying to impose it on the players he had available.

My comments are based on the fact that injuries forced him to change our formation, after which we went on a run of good results. But as injured players returned, he reverted to his preferred system, and the results stopped. We have had the same thing this system, with the team struggling to get results once more. And once again, there was the insistence on the preferred system, with even less fruitfulness. Until the disasters against Crewe and Stevenage in particular, with the consequence that the fans started to turn on the team, and on the manager - noticeably it was the away fans, whose support is tremendous, that made the most noise. It seemed as though Warne threw his hands in the air and let the team play to its strengths, and off we went on this terrific run, which is still in progress. But the worrying signs were there on Saturday, and instead of involving the midfield in addition to using the channels, we went back to bypassing them. You might notice comments about Max Bird, Connor Hourihane and Louie Sibley being ineffective. Well they would be when the ball was being whacked out to the wings at every opportunity. It might have been a one off, but lo and behold last night it was clear in the first half especially that the honeymoon was over, and we were back to Warne's preferred wings and crosses methodology. And we were back to creating very little threat at all, apart from the few flashes of "proper" football which did give us attempt at goal. And it was only after the substitutions that we started to dominate what was actually a very well organised, hard working opposition team, but which actually threatened very little. Yes, credit to him for making the changes, and it might well have been that he planned it that way, knowing that Wilson and Sibley would unlock the Lincoln defence, but given the pattern we have already seen all too often, I am not so sure.

Our defensive stats have come from the partnership between Cashin and Nelson, and credit to Warne for settling those two together. We also have a great goals scored figure, but most of that has come since we started to play football. And yes, I will have a go about the incessant crossing, because it has produced so little in return. We were crossing the ball poorly, either to high or too deep, to a lone striker who was battling defenders who are inevitably taller than him, or who was so busy doing all is "off the ball" work that he is late arriving. His "in the box" work has improved, curiously since we changed our style, with our crosses now being to feet as well as in the air. 

So all this is me showing my frustration that having, for the second time, shown that this team really can do the business we have reverted back to the system which is proven to not be effective. Why? 

Oh, and by the way ....... you don't have to be "impressed" by what I put on here, it is just an opinion, just like everybody else's. If you don't think much to it, so what, you don't have to. And I don't mind either way. Put me on ignore, if you like, I won't take offence.

[LazloW]

1 hour ago, DavesaRam said:

I am a retired HGV driver, so i have no aspirations to work in the media, thank you very much. I just like to give my opinion, as does everybody else on this forum. It is what forums are for. All I want to do with this "verbosity" is express my frustration taht we are consistently underperforming while it being obvious that we can do so much better, and have proved it several times, only to go backwards once more.

And no, I don't think he sets the team up to play poorly, he sets the team up the way that he wants it to play. Which is what he should be doing. But ..... cast your mind back to last season, when he wanted to play a wing-back system , but didn't have the players to do it. Unfortunately, for whatever reason we didn't manage to recruit the players to enable his particular system. But that didn't stop him trying to impose it on the players he had available.

My comments are based on the fact that injuries forced him to change our formation, after which we went on a run of good results. But as injured players returned, he reverted to his preferred system, and the results stopped. We have had the same thing this system, with the team struggling to get results once more. And once again, there was the insistence on the preferred system, with even less fruitfulness. Until the disasters against Crewe and Stevenage in particular, with the consequence that the fans started to turn on the team, and on the manager - noticeably it was the away fans, whose support is tremendous, that made the most noise. It seemed as though Warne threw his hands in the air and let the team play to its strengths, and off we went on this terrific run, which is still in progress. But the worrying signs were there on Saturday, and instead of involving the midfield in addition to using the channels, we went back to bypassing them. You might notice comments about Max Bird, Connor Hourihane and Louie Sibley being ineffective. Well they would be when the ball was being whacked out to the wings at every opportunity. It might have been a one off, but lo and behold last night it was clear in the first half especially that the honeymoon was over, and we were back to Warne's preferred wings and crosses methodology. And we were back to creating very little threat at all, apart from the few flashes of "proper" football which did give us attempt at goal. And it was only after the substitutions that we started to dominate what was actually a very well organised, hard working opposition team, but which actually threatened very little. Yes, credit to him for making the changes, and it might well have been that he planned it that way, knowing that Wilson and Sibley would unlock the Lincoln defence, but given the pattern we have already seen all too often, I am not so sure.

Our defensive stats have come from the partnership between Cashin and Nelson, and credit to Warne for settling those two together. We also have a great goals scored figure, but most of that has come since we started to play football. And yes, I will have a go about the incessant crossing, because it has produced so little in return. We were crossing the ball poorly, either to high or too deep, to a lone striker who was battling defenders who are inevitably taller than him, or who was so busy doing all is "off the ball" work that he is late arriving. His "in the box" work has improved, curiously since we changed our style, with our crosses now being to feet as well as in the air. 

So all this is me showing my frustration that having, for the second time, shown that this team really can do the business we have reverted back to the system which is proven to not be effective. Why? 

Oh, and by the way ....... you don't have to be "impressed" by what I put on here, it is just an opinion, just like everybody else's. If you don't think much to it, so what, you don't have to. And I don't mind either way. Put me on ignore, if you like, I won't take offence.

TLDR

[On the Ram Page]

1 hour ago, DavesaRam said:

I am a retired HGV driver, so i have no aspirations to work in the media, thank you very much. I just like to give my opinion, as does everybody else on this forum. It is what forums are for. All I want to do with this "verbosity" is express my frustration taht we are consistently underperforming while it being obvious that we can do so much better, and have proved it several times, only to go backwards once more.

And no, I don't think he sets the team up to play poorly, he sets the team up the way that he wants it to play. Which is what he should be doing. But ..... cast your mind back to last season, when he wanted to play a wing-back system , but didn't have the players to do it. Unfortunately, for whatever reason we didn't manage to recruit the players to enable his particular system. But that didn't stop him trying to impose it on the players he had available.

My comments are based on the fact that injuries forced him to change our formation, after which we went on a run of good results. But as injured players returned, he reverted to his preferred system, and the results stopped. We have had the same thing this system, with the team struggling to get results once more. And once again, there was the insistence on the preferred system, with even less fruitfulness. Until the disasters against Crewe and Stevenage in particular, with the consequence that the fans started to turn on the team, and on the manager - noticeably it was the away fans, whose support is tremendous, that made the most noise. It seemed as though Warne threw his hands in the air and let the team play to its strengths, and off we went on this terrific run, which is still in progress. But the worrying signs were there on Saturday, and instead of involving the midfield in addition to using the channels, we went back to bypassing them. You might notice comments about Max Bird, Connor Hourihane and Louie Sibley being ineffective. Well they would be when the ball was being whacked out to the wings at every opportunity. It might have been a one off, but lo and behold last night it was clear in the first half especially that the honeymoon was over, and we were back to Warne's preferred wings and crosses methodology. And we were back to creating very little threat at all, apart from the few flashes of "proper" football which did give us attempt at goal. And it was only after the substitutions that we started to dominate what was actually a very well organised, hard working opposition team, but which actually threatened very little. Yes, credit to him for making the changes, and it might well have been that he planned it that way, knowing that Wilson and Sibley would unlock the Lincoln defence, but given the pattern we have already seen all too often, I am not so sure.

Our defensive stats have come from the partnership between Cashin and Nelson, and credit to Warne for settling those two together. We also have a great goals scored figure, but most of that has come since we started to play football. And yes, I will have a go about the incessant crossing, because it has produced so little in return. We were crossing the ball poorly, either to high or too deep, to a lone striker who was battling defenders who are inevitably taller than him, or who was so busy doing all is "off the ball" work that he is late arriving. His "in the box" work has improved, curiously since we changed our style, with our crosses now being to feet as well as in the air. 

So all this is me showing my frustration that having, for the second time, shown that this team really can do the business we have reverted back to the system which is proven to not be effective. Why? 

Oh, and by the way ....... you don't have to be "impressed" by what I put on here, it is just an opinion, just like everybody else's. If you don't think much to it, so what, you don't have to. And I don't mind either way. Put me on ignore, if you like, I won't take offence.

I have no problems at all it you having your views and opinions, just as I have mine - that’s what the world is about thank goodness. What I do hate are comments like “and it is down to the way the team are being asked, nay told to play - out wide, cross it”. You do not know how they have been told to play, you are purely guessing based on your bias and non-objectivity. Our poor performance in the 1st half, I think, was down to out inability to pass the ball with quality, control the football properly, people not moving to receive the ball and therefore getting tackled. The opposition, as another poster remarked, packed midfield and made space at a premium. An obvious answer is to try and attack down the wings. Unfortunately our passing and crossing when we got the chance was of poor quality.

Again, my opinion - not fact, I think Ward was shown an example of, by being substituted at half time, in a like for like change. Wilson struggled early on, but currently has more confidence to keep taking player on (than Ward) and this made a difference. Two of our goals came from crosses into the box, the first and second goals. I also don’t like the balance in midfield wher we tend to be too open. I personally would like to see Fornah as the defensive midfielder, as he is more mobile and can win the ball. Hourahan could possibly then link up by playing in the middle. I think Bird has done ok in the advance position and has been involved in some lovely passing movements which have lead to goals a month or two back. But the balance isn’t right and I am not sure we currently have the players to get it right.

In summary, I have opinions but I do not spout them as being factually correct. You may be right that Warne tells them not to pass to midfielders, only to wingers or whack it down the field, but I am sure that is not the case. He seems as frustrated as the fans that we are not playing better. I think Warne gets a bad press on here, when I think the players have to take a lot more responsibility for their performances.

 

[valakari]

Just an observation. Ward gave away a penalty in both the last 2 games..and is obviously not a defender.

In the 1st half v Lincoln, he did cross quite a few which went near post...Collins failed to get across the front defender...in fact after about 5 of these, the next cross went higher and the keeper caught it...ironically Collins went near post!

Without stating the bleeding obvious, Collins does not have the instinct of a goalscorer, and always seems to be in the wrong place when balls are in the 6 yard box...the amount of times its just behind him or just in front of him...

He works hard, unfortunately, he just hasn't got it...although very pleased for him with his goal last night.

[Rammy03]

9 hours ago, DavesaRam said:

Last night, apart from the first goal, all of our chances came from playing football. So why not do more of it? Our good run up until Wycombe came from us playing more of a footballing game, which we changed to after the protests from supporters following the Stevenage and Crewe matches. 

It is clear that the team can do it, and it us clear that Warne can do it, but it is also clear that Warne would rather not do it

Absolute nonsense. You really think Warne would rather us play crap football?

Edited December 23, 2023 by Rammy03

[Wolfie20]

3 hours ago, valakari said:

Just an observation. Ward gave away a penalty in both the last 2 games..and is obviously not a defender.

In the 1st half v Lincoln, he did cross quite a few which went near post...Collins failed to get across the front defender...in fact after about 5 of these, the next cross went higher and the keeper caught it...ironically Collins went near post!

Without stating the bleeding obvious, Collins does not have the instinct of a goalscorer, and always seems to be in the wrong place when balls are in the 6 yard box...the amount of times its just behind him or just in front of him...

He works hard, unfortunately, he just hasn't got it...although very pleased for him with his goal last night.

For someone who 'does not have the instinct of a goalscorer' he's not doing too badly with not far short of 200 in his career so far. Jordan Rhodes is often mentioned as a 'natural goalscorer' yet has only scored 30 more having played a similar number of career games.

You've recently suggested Michael Smith or Lukas Jutkiewicz as better alternatives to Collins yet their goals per game records are significantly poorer. It's obvious you have a downer on the guy yet the stats don't appear to confirm your opinion about his goalscoring ability.

[Archied]

5 hours ago, valakari said:

Just an observation. Ward gave away a penalty in both the last 2 games..and is obviously not a defender.

In the 1st half v Lincoln, he did cross quite a few which went near post...Collins failed to get across the front defender...in fact after about 5 of these, the next cross went higher and the keeper caught it...ironically Collins went near post!

Without stating the bleeding obvious, Collins does not have the instinct of a goalscorer, and always seems to be in the wrong place when balls are in the 6 yard box...the amount of times its just behind him or just in front of him...

He works hard, unfortunately, he just hasn't got it...although very pleased for him with his goal last night.

Collins does not have the instinct s of a goal scorer ??? ,,,, have you actually seen the amount of career goals the man has scored ? Yes it’s around this level but for gods sake your comment is beyond daft , check the figures 

[IlsonDerby]

On 21/12/2023 at 23:32, RIMBAUD said:

Collins did well for the first. Not sure why he’s not getting more credit. He had a decent game imo. 

Bloke is the top scorer for the third placed team and has scored double the number of goals that a striker our fans were creaming over has scored this season. 

On 21/12/2023 at 23:45, DRBee said:

But Fornah was worse than Bird and Hourihane tonight. Sadly Fornah was ineffective, giving the ball away too often ( not that Bird and Hourihane don't also give the ball away) and running into blind alleys.

Fornah is a good young player who’s willing to try things. He’ll lose the ball because he’s trying to move it forwards. Bird has more experience and is better at this currently but losing the ball trying to progress it isn’t the worst crime in the world. Can’t have 3 Hourihanes all holding hands with the centre backs. 

[Crewton]

6 hours ago, valakari said:

Just an observation. Ward gave away a penalty in both the last 2 games..and is obviously not a defender.

In the 1st half v Lincoln, he did cross quite a few which went near post...Collins failed to get across the front defender...in fact after about 5 of these, the next cross went higher and the keeper caught it...ironically Collins went near post!

Without stating the bleeding obvious, Collins does not have the instinct of a goalscorer, and always seems to be in the wrong place when balls are in the 6 yard box...the amount of times its just behind him or just in front of him...

He works hard, unfortunately, he just hasn't got it...although very pleased for him with his goal and assist last night.

Lest we forget.

[Chester40]

8 hours ago, On the Ram Page said:

I have no problems at all it you having your views and opinions, just as I have mine - that’s what the world is about thank goodness. What I do hate are comments like “and it is down to the way the team are being asked, nay told to play - out wide, cross it”. You do not know how they have been told to play, you are purely guessing based on your bias and non-objectivity. Our poor performance in the 1st half, I think, was down to out inability to pass the ball with quality, control the football properly, people not moving to receive the ball and therefore getting tackled. The opposition, as another poster remarked, packed midfield and made space at a premium. An obvious answer is to try and attack down the wings. Unfortunately our passing and crossing when we got the chance was of poor quality.

Again, my opinion - not fact, I think Ward was shown an example of, by being substituted at half time, in a like for like change. Wilson struggled early on, but currently has more confidence to keep taking player on (than Ward) and this made a difference. Two of our goals came from crosses into the box, the first and second goals. I also don’t like the balance in midfield wher we tend to be too open. I personally would like to see Fornah as the defensive midfielder, as he is more mobile and can win the ball. Hourahan could possibly then link up by playing in the middle. I think Bird has done ok in the advance position and has been involved in some lovely passing movements which have lead to goals a month or two back. But the balance isn’t right and I am not sure we currently have the players to get it right.

In summary, I have opinions but I do not spout them as being factually correct. You may be right that Warne tells them not to pass to midfielders, only to wingers or whack it down the field, but I am sure that is not the case. He seems as frustrated as the fans that we are not playing better. I think Warne gets a bad press on here, when I think the players have to take a lot more responsibility for their performances.

 

I can't believe the tactics weren't premeditated. 

I wouldn't like to count how many times Nelson and Cashin passed it sideways to each other and then out wide to Ward/Forsyth.

The midfield didn't really come short to take it off them, the keeper rarely kicked it long and until Cashin played a couple of crossfield balls they didn't go long. 

As has been pointed out, Warne just seemed irritated we did it too slowly.

We could do with someone a bit more dangerous in the air as Collins doesn't look likely to score in that way.

The criticism of Warne's tactics was previously we just launched it. I've not seen evidence of that for a long time and I always thought it was over stated.

Currently we seem reliant on moments of magic (rather than sustained pressure), usually from Wilson and NML. But we do have a few players who are capable now.

Big few matches coming up...

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Chester40

[Crewton]

I've increasingly noticed (and Thursday was certainly the case) that our play becomes far more fluid and intuitive after we score - almost as if the players don't quite believe they're capable of playing that way or they are being cautious in order to avoid messing up. Am I imagining this or is it something that others have noticed?

[Srg]

3 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I've increasingly noticed (and Thursday was certainly the case) that our play becomes far more fluid and intuitive after we score - almost as if the players don't quite believe they're capable of playing that way or they are being cautious in order to avoid messing up. Am I imagining this or is it something that others have noticed?

You’re not imagining it, but you are overlooking the main reason why it happens. Teams can no longer sit and defend in a low block when they’re already losing. They need to step out and try and score, which leaves us more space to work with in attacking areas. 

[jcidaho]

5 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I've increasingly noticed (and Thursday was certainly the case) that our play becomes far more fluid and intuitive after we score - almost as if the players don't quite believe they're capable of playing that way or they are being cautious in order to avoid messing up. Am I imagining this or is it something that others have noticed?

Yes, they seem to be playing with a great deal of pressure on.

[Crewton]

2 minutes ago, Srg said:

You’re not imagining it, but you are overlooking the main reason why it happens. Teams can no longer sit and defend in a low block when they’re already losing. They need to step out and try and score, which leaves us more space to work with in attacking areas. 

Yes, that's true, but from what I've observed our whole demenour changes too. Of course, most players get a boost in confidence and morale when the team scores, but if they could play with that 'freedom' from the start and maintain it, it could make a big difference to where we finish.

That's Warne's biggest challenge I think.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

1 minute ago, Crewton said:

Yes, that's true, but from what I've observed our whole demenour changes too. Of course, most players get a boost in confidence and morale when the team scores, but if they could play with that 'freedom' from the start and maintain it, it could make a big difference to where we finish.

That's Warne's biggest challenge I think.

It seems to me, we, the crowd, are kind of judging each game as we don't yet trust them to blow teams away. As a result the atmosphere is tense rather than arrogant. I'm not blaming us fans I'm just saying the players as yet haven't got the unquestioning belief of the fans. If that happens the whole mood will change, players will relax and the better times will role. 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

4 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

It seems to me, we, the crowd, are kind of judging each game as we don't yet trust them to blow teams away. As a result the atmosphere is tense rather than arrogant. I'm not blaming us fans I'm just saying the players as yet haven't got the unquestioning belief of the fans. If that happens the whole mood will change, players will relax and the better times will role. 

Sorry to quote myself but this also links in with the atmosphere at pride park thread. 

[Caerphilly Ram]

8 hours ago, valakari said:

Just an observation. Ward gave away a penalty in both the last 2 games..and is obviously not a defender.

In the 1st half v Lincoln, he did cross quite a few which went near post...Collins failed to get across the front defender...in fact after about 5 of these, the next cross went higher and the keeper caught it...ironically Collins went near post!

Without stating the bleeding obvious, Collins does not have the instinct of a goalscorer, and always seems to be in the wrong place when balls are in the 6 yard box...the amount of times its just behind him or just in front of him...

He works hard, unfortunately, he just hasn't got it...although very pleased for him with his goal last night.

Watch the replay back from Thursday. Collins pointed for the pass from Wilson, made the run, steadied himself and finished it well….surely that’s evidence that he does have the instinct of a goalscorer?
He’s limited in ways, which is why he’s played most of his career lower down the pyramid. However, as others have pointed out, he’s scored over 200 career goals and has played international football… I suppose he tripped and fell knocking most of them in? 🤦🏻‍♂️ 
He’s really not the clogger you and others repeatedly make him out to be. Could we have better? Yeah probably, but at the moment he’s what we’ve got and is playing a part for the team.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Caerphilly Ram

[Srg]

51 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Watch the replay back from Thursday. Collins pointed for the pass from Wilson, made the run, steadied himself and finished it well….surely that’s evidence that he does have the instinct of a goalscorer?
He’s limited in ways, which is why he’s played most of his career lower down the pyramid. However, as others have pointed out, he’s scored over 200 career goals and has played international football… I suppose he tripped and fell knocking most of them in? 🤦🏻‍♂️ 
He’s really not the clogger you and others repeatedly make him out to be. Could we have better? Yeah probably, but at the moment he’s what we’ve got and is playing a part for the team.

Just seems like another one age is catching up to. Has the odd moment, but struggles to keep it up. Hourihane is similar… can see what he can do with that goal on Thursday, but it’s not a regular thing anymore. 

[valakari]

Okay, Smith maybe doesn't stack up..but Rhodes played majority at a higher level and more goals with less games.

Jutkiewicz also played mostly at higher level.

Its my opinion, but i would have either of them over Collins.

I don't think Collins is a good player, but i do appreciate his workrate..which is something fans love...

I suppose having watched, Hector, Lee, George, Saunders, Goddard, etc, i have higher standards, but even at lower level, Davison , Gee , Howard,  Vydra, Martin...all so much better than Collins though...

[Caerphilly Ram]

29 minutes ago, Srg said:

Just seems like another one age is catching up to. Has the odd moment, but struggles to keep it up. Hourihane is similar… can see what he can do with that goal on Thursday, but it’s not a regular thing anymore. 

Fair point, and what Valakari’s said about the standard of player we’ve had in the past being far superior also makes sense. But we currently find ourselves in a very different time and place to the days of Hector, George, Sturridge, Wanchope, Howard, Vydra etc.

We’ve dined on steak in the past, hopefully we will again in the future, but for me I accept the situation now being that of a James Collins cheeseburger from the van in the motorway lay-by….It’s plain and simple, bit tough at times and maybe not the leanest beef but it’ll do enough of a job for the moment until we’re back at the nicer eateries of the land. I’m a fan of that simpler option from time to time 😉