Is Clowes Blameless?

[lrm14]

15 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Yep. The title was rushed and clumsily worded. I don’t blame him for anything, and certainly not yet. Wanted to have a discussion of the following:

1) Is it ever acceptable to respectfully criticise Clowes’ decision making?

2) If so, when does it become acceptable to respectfully criticise?

3) Are there any decisions that Clowes has made that give you some cause for concern in regard to our ability to get out of League One and push for the Premier League, which is presumably the ultimate goal?

1) Yes, always. So long as it's respectful then I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it. Everyone knows football is a game of opinions which is why I find it strange you've gotten so much stick for this thread.

2) Whenever you want, again provided it's respectful.

3) Trading Rosenior for Warne was a howler and I personally think it has set us back a few years due to how incapable the squad is at playing Warne's style.

[Wolfie]

38 minutes ago, swanny said:

no, sorry,  actually you are spot on. I just listened back and all he said was that we had a budget which was  "sizeable compared to the rest of the league"  which does hint that its big compared to others but doesn't actually say that. 

S'OK!.

I'm a bit of a stickler for accuracy & fairness - I suppose especially at the moment when emotions all round are running a bit high. I (in my mind) have to question these things, otherwise opinions based on false assumptions get used as a stick to beat the club with.

[Foreveram]

1 hour ago, Brailsford Ram said:

FR, I should be laughing at that but Delia brings no humour to a Derby fan and I'm not sure CBR will approve the association.

If you'd included the full quotation she was saying "Let's be having' your 40 quid you Derby mugs."

The Delia song that she got in response wiped the smile off her face though.

I don’t think it did wipe the smile off her face though as lots, me included just sucked it up and paid.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

I don’t think it did wipe the smile off her face though as lots, me included just sucked it up and paid.

So did I but she was very uncomfortable with the singing which the Derby fans kept up throughout although the Norwich fans thought it was funny. She was squirming. Then in the final few minutes the Norwich fans started chanting her name. She leaped to her feet clapping them but soon sat down when the home fans joined in with the Derby song. The protest made headlines in the Sunday papers the next day and she had to chuck away her lamb and mint pies that the Derby fans had refused to buy. Following a hastily arranged board meeting that week, Norwich reduced the away prices with immediate effect and the following season the EFL introduced the rule that a club could not charge more for an away ticket than the home fans were being charged. Did you leave early that day?

[Eddie]

Yes.

[vonwright]

Surely it's possible to be eternally grateful to Clowes for his actions in saving the club and at the same time have some questions or reservations about the way he runs that club? These are quite distinct. However well or badly Clowes runs the club, it won't affect my gratitude for him saving it. Equally, however grateful I am for him saving the club, it won't affect my assessment of the way he runs it. 

I don't see why it's somehow disrespectful to discuss the way the club is being run - choice of manager, budget, etc.

It's a football forum. We have to be able to discuss Clowes the chairman as well as Clowes the saviour.

[jimtastic56]

17 minutes ago, vonwright said:

Surely it's possible to be eternally grateful to Clowes for his actions in saving the club and at the same time have some questions or reservations about the way he runs that club? These are quite distinct. However well or badly Clowes runs the club, it won't affect my gratitude for him saving it. Equally, however grateful I am for him saving the club, it won't affect my assessment of the way he runs it. 

I don't see why it's somehow disrespectful to discuss the way the club is being run - choice of manager, budget, etc.

It's a football forum. We have to be able to discuss Clowes the chairman as well as Clowes the saviour.

I agree, very well explained. Ed Dawes said pre Oxford , that we would enjoy games more if we thought back to how close we went to extinction. That’s true but you will never alter the opinion of Rams fans that “We are massive” , as do the fans of Leeds , Leicester etc etc

[LazloW]

46 minutes ago, vonwright said:

Surely it's possible to be eternally grateful to Clowes for his actions in saving the club and at the same time have some questions or reservations about the way he runs that club? These are quite distinct. However well or badly Clowes runs the club, it won't affect my gratitude for him saving it. Equally, however grateful I am for him saving the club, it won't affect my assessment of the way he runs it. 

I don't see why it's somehow disrespectful to discuss the way the club is being run - choice of manager, budget, etc.

It's a football forum. We have to be able to discuss Clowes the chairman as well as Clowes the saviour.

Notwithstanding that there is nothing to ‘blame him for’ at the moment, the only thing I’d disagree with in your comment in principle is the budget. While no doubt we can whinge that it would be nice to have a bigger budget and to have signed Tom, Dick and Harry, I don’t think it would ever be reasonable to question DC’s expenditure. He hasn’t got the deep pockets of Mel and nor should we expect him to. Nor should we expect him to bankrupt himself or his family’s company over football - not least when he saved the club through ‘love’ rather than good business sense or in any attempt to make money. We have also been crying out to be run more sustainably and sensibly but that inevitably brings with it constraints.  

In terms of how the money is spent, well I’ve never seen how that’s the owner’s fault. Even the criticism of Mel was odd in that respect. Either the manager, or another appointed expert, selects and buys the players. Any criticism there should fall fairly and squarely on their shoulders, not the owner who has backed them to the best of their ability.  We have to recognise that we cannot afford to spend like we did and, until Mr Clowes sells us (which I actually expect him to do as soon as he can - again, no criticism there I expect it was always seen as short term emergency situation), we are going to have to cut cloth accordingly.  

It’s far too early this season to be fretting too much any way. Not very good signs so far and making it increasingly difficult for ourselves obviously, but but nothing that can’t be fixed.  

[Curtains]

1 hour ago, vonwright said:

Surely it's possible to be eternally grateful to Clowes for his actions in saving the club and at the same time have some questions or reservations about the way he runs that club? These are quite distinct. However well or badly Clowes runs the club, it won't affect my gratitude for him saving it. Equally, however grateful I am for him saving the club, it won't affect my assessment of the way he runs it. 

I don't see why it's somehow disrespectful to discuss the way the club is being run - choice of manager, budget, etc.

It's a football forum. We have to be able to discuss Clowes the chairman as well as Clowes the saviour.

100 percent this 

[FlyBritishMidland]

10 hours ago, Topram said:

Think people are underestimating how big of a rebuild this is, 2nd season in 3 games in and everyone thinks we should be walking this league, we still can’t spend a penny by the sounds of it, just because we’re a big club doesn’t mean we’ll p*ss the league it took Ipswich a while Bolton stuck still, Sunderland a few years, give it chance and stop just expecting after the sh*te we’ve gone through 

Exactly this.  Thanks to the mess Mad Mel left behind and selling the ground to himself DC had to stump up in the region of £50M to buy the club.  That is a massive amount of money for a L1 club.  And it really did need a total rebuild behind the scenes to and the rot had set in before administration with dodgy takeover deals, FFP, not paying wages.  The rebuild will take time.  I wonder if PW also underestimated how big the rebuild job is.

[lrm14]

35 minutes ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

Exactly this.  Thanks to the mess Mad Mel left behind and selling the ground to himself DC had to stump up in the region of £50M to buy the club.  That is a massive amount of money for a L1 club.  And it really did need a total rebuild behind the scenes to and the rot had set in before administration with dodgy takeover deals, FFP, not paying wages.  The rebuild will take time.  I wonder if PW also underestimated how big the rebuild job is.

The reason the rebuild is such a big job is because last summer Rosenior miraculously cobbled together a competitive squad designed to play possession based football and we binned him off for a pressing based manager. If it wasn't for McGoldrick single-handedly dragging us to 7th last season I firmly believe we'd have finished bottom half and our current meltdown would have come 7 months ago. Warne will probably complete the rebuild successfully given time but his appointment for me has added at least another year or two to the timeline.

Edited August 17, 2023 by lrm14

[DarkFruitsRam7]

22 minutes ago, lrm14 said:

The reason the rebuild is such a big job is because last summer Rosenior miraculously cobbled together a competitive squad designed to play possession based football and we binned him off for a pressing based manager. If it wasn't for McGoldrick single-handedly dragging us to 7th last season I firmly believe we'd have finished bottom half and our current meltdown would have come 7 months ago. Warne will probably complete the rebuild successfully given time but his appointment for me has added at least another year or two to the timeline.

This is another reason I’d advocate for a DoF model. Swapping between managers with wildly different playing styles is disastrous if you have to get rid. We made that mistake under MM.

Though Clowes and Pearce could choose to maintain continuity if they wanted. I feel like Moore would be a reasonably sensible appointment on this criterium alone should Warne go.

Edited August 17, 2023 by DarkFruitsRam7

[nottingram]

2 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

This is another reason I’d advocate for a DoF model. Swapping between managers with wildly different playing styles is disastrous if you have to get rid. We made that mistake under MM.

Though Clowes and Pearce could choose to maintain continuity if they wanted. I feel like Moore would be a reasonably sensible appointment on this criterium alone should Warne go.

It just seems like common sense to have a DOF really. A CEO is inevitably going to be very good at off field stuff (and I really like what we’re doing off field) but it is ultimately quite unlikely they will be an expert in football matters. Surely it just seems obvious to have an overarching CEO type role related to on field matters too? Director of Football, Technical Director, whatever you want to call it.

[Tyler Durden]

It does make me giggle when the same poster advocates allowing criticism as long as it's respectful in one breath then in the next say DC made a howler by binning off LR in favour of PW.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

4 minutes ago, nottingram said:

It just seems like common sense to have a DOF really. A CEO is inevitably going to be very good at off field stuff (and I really like what we’re doing off field) but it is ultimately quite unlikely they will be an expert in football matters. Surely it just seems obvious to have an overarching CEO type role related to on field matters too? Director of Football, Technical Director, whatever you want to call it.

Yep. Although it’s all well and good arguing for this but the real difficulty would be finding the right person for the job. 

It’s also possible that a DoF who joins a League One club may need to be upgraded should we, say, get to the Premier League. Not easy being the owner of a football club!

[DarkFruitsRam7]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

It does make me giggle when the same poster advocates allowing criticism as long as it's respectful in one breath then in the next say DC made a howler by binning off LR in favour of PW.

Not sure if this is aimed at me, but I didn’t say that at all. I had no problem with Warne’s appointment at the time. I don’t criticise Clowes for it in the slightest, though on reflection it may have been a mistake to switch between playing styles. But I’d be a hypocrite to criticise him for it in hindsight.

Also I’ve not seen any “disrespectful” criticism of anyone in this thread.

Edited August 17, 2023 by DarkFruitsRam7

[Tyler Durden]

1 minute ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I didn’t say that at all. I had no problem with Warne’s appointment at the time. I don’t criticise Clowes for it in the slightest, though on reflection it may have been a mistake to switch between playing styles. But I’d be a hypocrite to criticise him for it in hindsight.

You're taking things too personally. I didn't say it was you. Look back over the last page. 

I always thought that respectful criticism was based on constructive feedback. Not by using totally unhelpful and emotive words such as making a howler. How on God's green earth is that remotely constructive?

[lrm14]

5 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

This is another reason I’d advocate for a DoF model. Swapping between managers with wildly different playing styles is disastrous if you have to get rid. We made that mistake under MM.

Though Clowes and Pearce could choose to maintain continuity if they wanted. I feel like Moore would be a reasonably sensible appointment on this criterium alone should Warne go.

Agreed, it seems to be the way football is going. As much stick as MM got at the time for the whole 'Derby way' phrase it was a good idea to have a philosphy permeate throughout the club, he just didn't properly act on it. Had he gone ahead and hired a DoF to recruit based on a style maybe things wouldn't have ended the way they did.

[Rich3478]

2 hours ago, jimtastic56 said:

I agree, very well explained. Ed Dawes said pre Oxford , that we would enjoy games more if we thought back to how close we went to extinction. That’s true but you will never alter the opinion of Rams fans that “We are massive” , as do the fans of Leeds , Leicester etc etc

Yeah find Ed Dawes to be really annoying now.

Personally felt like the year before last summer was all the suffering, had no idea what was happening, if had a club etc. it was draining for all of us I think. once clowes had saved the club, it was nice to actually look forward and be optimistic again. Don’t think anyone had crazy expectations. And then watching the team, was pretty obvious we were one of the better sides in the league. 

Not saying have forgotten where we were but I think it’s definitely time to leave it in the past where we can now. Let’s focus on getting a good side and getting out of this division.

[lrm14]

14 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

It does make me giggle when the same poster advocates allowing criticism as long as it's respectful in one breath then in the next say DC made a howler by binning off LR in favour of PW.

Saying someone made a mistake isn't disrespectful. I'm genuinely surprised I have to say that to you.