Money

[Jayram]

6 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Don't shoot me down....but am concerned how things could pan out over the short to medium term - together with the EFLs "help" Clowes is intending to run the club as a sustainable business (not a bad thing after the previous owner may I add).

However....in my humble opinion with this business model the longer we remain in League 1 the harder it then becomes year on year to escape from this league.

Attendances drop, which then affect the club's revenue which potentially cover the cost of players wages. Our better or best players get sold to cover running costs of the club and next to nothing of the fees recouped then are able to be reinvested even moderately for adequate replacements and this cycle continues with us effectively competing with the other x amount of League clubs on an even platform for bargain basement players. 

I'm not advocating going back to the boom and bust era of MM but reflecting on the game yesterday we are still desperately short of adequate - and I use the word adequate rather than stellar or world class - additions in a number of key positions.

If our budget is constraining these additions being made or its DC financial prudency then I fear for this season.

Having a competitive budget means exactly that nothing more nothing less. If we are constrained by not being able to pay even modest transfer fees as that limits the amount of players we can then being in then any advantage we may lever over other clubs has virtually been eroded. 

Again I'm not saying the above is a necessarily bad thing but there are definite consequences to it if Warne isn't able to transpose his magic from Rotherham to our club in putting together a team of players with virtually no cost AND galvanising them into promotion candidates. 

I got shot down for saying something similar (but much less eloquently than you) just before the season started. The fact is that despite our tribal loyalty eventually if we end up in a cycle of selling our best youngsters and signing players for nominal fees to stay sustainable people will just drift away. Who wants to pay £28-£33 a game just to watch the likes of Stevenage or Fleetwood every season? Revenues will erode and eventually we’ll be just bobbing along in this league year in year out like Burton. There has to be some ambition and that requires spending some decent money on the standard of player who will make a difference, starting now if possible.

 

 

[maxjam]

16 minutes ago, Jayram said:

There has to be some ambition and that requires spending some decent money on the standard of player who will make a difference, starting now if possible.

What if, as a now sustainable club, we haven't got 'decent money' to splash out anymore?

And even if we did, following years of having our academy pillaged and losing players to pay the bills, any money we had has been needed to fund around 10 players a season. 

Since exiting administration we've been playing catchup every summer, we haven't been in a position to drop £500k-£1m on a player that will make the difference come May, we're spreading it around the entire team.  If you look at some big teams that have escaped Lg1 in recent years, they had been down here a longer than us, started from a better position than us and still took their time to get promoted. 

We may not like it, but patience is a virtue.

[Jayram]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

What if, as a now sustainable club, we haven't got 'decent money' to splash out anymore?

And even if we did, following years of having our academy pillaged and losing players to pay the bills, any money we had has been needed to fund around 10 players a season. 

Since exiting administration we've been playing catchup every summer, we haven't been in a position to drop £500k-£1m on a player that will make the difference come May, we're spreading it around the entire team.  If you look at some big teams that have escaped Lg1 in recent years, they had been down here a longer than us, started from a better position than us and still took their time to get promoted. 

We may not like it, but patience is a virtue.

Yes, patience is a virtue but this is football we’re talking about. If the business plan is to sell our best prospects and replace them with players bought for nominal fees year in year out to keep within budget fan interest will dwindle as will club revenue and we’ll be stuck down here for years. 
 

[maxjam]

42 minutes ago, Jayram said:

Yes, patience is a virtue but this is football we’re talking about. If the business plan is to sell our best prospects and replace them with players bought for nominal fees year in year out to keep within budget fan interest will dwindle as will club revenue and we’ll be stuck down here for years. 

We've barely got any prospects to sell because the academy has been pillaged. 

Our 2 best current players under 25 are in the final year of their contracts iirc. 

We were under a strict embargo last season and haven't got piles o'cash to buy enough players of quality to put together the kinda squad that fans think we should be doing this season - yes we could probably be doing more to unearth gems, but when the squad consists of 5 players before you start, you've gotta get everyone of them right.  The approach has understandably been to try an coax another season or two out of established pro's (that have typically all been promoted before)

I don't think people realise how bad a state MM left us in.  We simply can't spend £1m on a striker that will fire us to the Championship, we've had to spend whatever money we've got on filling multiple positions and the academy and tbh I think we've done a pretty good job. 

We just missed out on the playoffs at the first attempt last season and are many peoples favourites this year.  Losing to Wigan yesterday was disappointing but a different day might have seen us win 2-0 - its not panic stations just yet.  If we manage to bring in a pacey #9 and #10 and maybe another player or two by the end of the transfer window the squad will look a lot different.  If not, it won't be because PW doesn't think we need them, it will be because MMs legacy and the finances won't allow it.

[Rample]

3 hours ago, TheTinMan said:

The striker situation is seriously depressing to be honest and we just seem to keep banging the same drum of looking at veterans who have fitness issues, are past their best and will be on silly wages still and they'll just move on once the contract ends and we're back to square one with rebuilding the team. Yes it worked for a season with Didzy but he's not that long out of the PL whereas Rhodes, Waghorn etc have been lower Championship players for years now. Nigel Clough barely had a pot to pee in but still unearthed some good signings from the lower leagues and Scotland. Do we even have a scouting team? 

In fairness didn't he waste money on Maguire, Salmon and Porter.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

Just now, Rample said:

In fairness didn't he waste money on Maguire, Salmon and Porter.

Porter was a good signing and got goals.  Then got injured.  Sammon was expensive but a great foil for Martin late in games knocking s*** out of centre backs and making them run.  Maguire was pant's.

[Rample]

14 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Porter was a good signing and got goals.  Then got injured.  Sammon was expensive but a great foil for Martin late in games knocking s*** out of centre backs and making them run.  Maguire was pant's.

£400k on Porter

£400k on Maguire

£1.2m on Salmon

£750k on Russell

Tyson

Vaughan, Campbell, Dickov, Sunu, Cywka. Boulding, Bueno, Moore, Robinson, Priskin on loan

I'll give you Kuqi, Ward and Martin (although the last 2 were loans that actually worked before signing permanently)

[DerbyAleMan]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

We've barely got any prospects to sell because the academy has been pillaged. 

Our 2 best current players under 25 are in the final year of their contracts iirc. 

We were under a strict embargo last season and haven't got piles o'cash to buy enough players of quality to put together the kinda squad that fans think we should be doing this season - yes we could probably be doing more to unearth gems, but when the squad consists of 5 players before you start, you've gotta get everyone of them right.  The approach has understandably been to try an coax another season or two out of established pro's (that have typically all been promoted before)

I don't think people realise how bad a state MM left us in.  We simply can't spend £1m on a striker that will fire us to the Championship, we've had to spend whatever money we've got on filling multiple positions and the academy and tbh I think we've done a pretty good job. 

We just missed out on the playoffs at the first attempt last season and are many peoples favourites this year.  Losing to Wigan yesterday was disappointing but a different day might have seen us win 2-0 - its not panic stations just yet.  If we manage to bring in a pacey #9 and #10 and maybe another player or two by the end of the transfer window the squad will look a lot different.  If not, it won't be because PW doesn't think we need them, it will be because MMs legacy and the finances won't allow it.

Agree with the above, Mel has put us years behind, we are lucky to even have a club after what Mel did to this club, it's rumoured he is still has his millions in his bank, but totally f***** up our great club, it will take time to heal what Mel did to us financially, but I have hope and faith that we are slowly getting there, can we get promotion this season, definitely we can, a few more in, have a good run which will build confidence, hope our main players keep fit then we have a chance. 

100 percent behind Mr Clowes, and the club. And so grateful to Mr Clowes saving us, i will get behind this great club, as long as I have breath in my body. Once A Ram Always A Ram. 

[deanoakaram4life]

51 minutes ago, Rample said:

£400k on Porter

£400k on Maguire

£1.2m on Salmon

£750k on Russell

Tyson

Vaughan, Campbell, Dickov, Sunu, Cywka. Boulding, Bueno, Moore, Robinson, Priskin on loan

I'll give you Kuqi, Ward and Martin (although the last 2 were loans that actually worked before signing permanently)

We’d love it if we were forking out these figures on players. 😂 A Shaun Barker type fee seems Saudi Arabia esq now. 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

48 minutes ago, Rample said:

£400k on Porter

£400k on Maguire

£1.2m on Salmon

£750k on Russell

Tyson

Vaughan, Campbell, Dickov, Sunu, Cywka. Boulding, Bueno, Moore, Robinson, Priskin on loan

I'll give you Kuqi, Ward and Martin (although the last 2 were loans that actually worked before signing permanently)

Brayford, Robinson, Bryson, Davies, Freeman, Coutts and Ward for under 1.5 million.  That's pretty good.  Bueno was outstanding till Burnley away where he got absolutely battered.

[TheTinMan]

On 06/08/2023 at 21:04, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Brayford, Robinson, Bryson, Davies, Freeman, Coutts and Ward for under 1.5 million.  That's pretty good.  Bueno was outstanding till Burnley away where he got absolutely battered.

thank you, was waiting for someone to spot we didn't pay much at all for Bryson. And I was talking more about the signings he made in his first season where he didn't have much money and he made us half decent considering where those players came from. But that would involve doing a bit of scouting rather than just buying players who were good 5 years ago or who played for Warne at Rotherham. 

[vonwright]

It's a strange thing though. All this talk of DC running a 'sustainable club' and yet our signings all seem very short term. Most of them are older and have a lot of experience; many have been very successful in League One but found wanting at Championship level. It's hard to see any of them having much retail value. You'd imagine the plan is 'get promoted at all costs this year so we can attract better players, increase our income etc'. And yet we've stopped spending before we've addressed some of the squads most glaring gaps.

I suppose this is fairly low-risk but I'm not sure it's a textbook example of 'sustainability' - or at least not a very ambitious kind of sustainability. Shouldn't we be looking at at least some younger players with a view to developing them, selling them at a profit, and reinvesting the money into the squad? Isn't that part of sustainability too?

[angieram]

8 hours ago, vonwright said:

It's a strange thing though. All this talk of DC running a 'sustainable club' and yet our signings all seem very short term. Most of them are older and have a lot of experience; many have been very successful in League One but found wanting at Championship level. It's hard to see any of them having much retail value. You'd imagine the plan is 'get promoted at all costs this year so we can attract better players, increase our income etc'. And yet we've stopped spending before we've addressed some of the squads most glaring gaps.

I suppose this is fairly low-risk but I'm not sure it's a textbook example of 'sustainability' - or at least not a very ambitious kind of sustainability. Shouldn't we be looking at at least some younger players with a view to developing them, selling them at a profit, and reinvesting the money into the squad? Isn't that part of sustainability too?

I think that the investment in new academy players' wages is meant to do just that. 

I just don't think we can afford to do it for players at their next stage of development yet, because they are the ones most in demand and will attract fees that we either can't afford, or are unwilling to pay at this stage of our re-birth.

[Caerphilly Ram]

4 minutes ago, angieram said:

I think that the investment in new academy players' wages is meant to do just that. 

I just don't think we can afford to do it for players at their next stage of development yet, because they are the ones most in demand and will attract fees that we either can't afford, or are unwilling to pay at this stage of our re-birth.

Something that a lot of people seem to ignore or treat as separate to the first team recruitment, there’s been several signings for the academy this summer (6 including player coach Bradley J?) all of whom are drawing a wage. Might not be a big sum in the grand scheme but it still costs. And what that does mean is we have signed some younger players who in time may step up to the first team squad. 
So we’re at 8 first team signings ranging between 23 and 33 in age plus, 5 new additions to the under 21s,  and a player coach. 13 and a half new players through the door with potentially more to come. There’s money being spent but definitely in a sensible and frugal manner. 

[Sussex Ram]

Imagine you inherit a house, and it’s falling apart. You don’t put in a new bathroom and kitchen, re-wire and re-plaster, and replace all the carpets at the same time. You simply can’t- particularly if the EFL set strict limits on what you can spend.

Perhaps that is where the analogy falls down, but hopefully you get my point. The club need to fight one battle at a time. On this thread (and threads on a similar topic) we’ve had people say we should invest more in a single proven striker to get us promoted; or in the whole first team squad; or youth prospects; or a scouting team. All valid opinions with their own merits.

What I really struggle with is people who say we should be doing that all at the same time. As much as we don’t want to get hung up on the administration period, it is undoubtedly created a financial hangover which we are recovering from. It’s a process, and (as painful as it is to admit/imagine) means we could take a few years to get out of League 1.

On 06/08/2023 at 17:08, Jayram said:

I got shot down for saying something similar (but much less eloquently than you) just before the season started. The fact is that despite our tribal loyalty eventually if we end up in a cycle of selling our best youngsters and signing players for nominal fees to stay sustainable people will just drift away. Who wants to pay £28-£33 a game just to watch the likes of Stevenage or Fleetwood every season? Revenues will erode and eventually we’ll be just bobbing along in this league year in year out like Burton. There has to be some ambition and that requires spending some decent money on the standard of player who will make a difference, starting now if possible.

 

 

I think the one thing you can rely on is the support. Granted the numbers might tail off, but we had the fourth biggest gate in the EFL this weekend (behind Sunderland, Leeds, Leicester). I expect we’ll average top 20 nationally, including Prem, once the season is over. It would take a lot to erode that level of support.

On 06/08/2023 at 18:45, Jayram said:

Yes, patience is a virtue but this is football we’re talking about. If the business plan is to sell our best prospects and replace them with players bought for nominal fees year in year out to keep within budget fan interest will dwindle as will club revenue and we’ll be stuck down here for years. 
 

I don’t think it’s “the plan” or a choice to sell our best prospects and buy players for nominal fees. Last few seasons it was a necessity to keep the club in existence, and then to make ourselves as competitive as we can be with no money.

[CornwallRam]

On 06/08/2023 at 18:45, Jayram said:

Yes, patience is a virtue but this is football we’re talking about. If the business plan is to sell our best prospects and replace them with players bought for nominal fees year in year out to keep within budget fan interest will dwindle as will club revenue and we’ll be stuck down here for years. 
 

This is the Championship conundrum. To be competitive you have to spend considerably more than you can make - unless you're a parachute club. Fine if you get promoted, but potentially an existential threat if you don't. 

Even worse, you can't even achieve sustainability by spending within your means and just accepting mid-table. You shrink as a club and eventually get relegated.

Mel was a **** for walking away in the way he did, but he didn't create the system. 

That's where David Clowes is going to have to make big decisions. 

Fortunately, we're not there yet. Although our cost base is high, our income will be comparatively huge for League 1. When free of the restrictions, we should be able to generate a competitive budget - not one that blows the opposition away, but enough for good management to get us promoted. 

[Raich Carter]

On 06/08/2023 at 12:29, TomTom92 said:

If we fail this season. Then next season will definitely be interesting. No EFL restrictions to hide behind. 
 
I’ll never say a bad word against DC. However, he rightly pointed out in his interview that for the last 30 years our success has been somewhat limited. As this selfishly covers my years of supporting Derby I’m as keen as anybody to see us start achieving. 
 
I fear if DC is GSEx2 then it could be another 10 years before we’re competing at the top end of the championship.  
 
I’d be interested to see who would win out of a match between PW promotion winning side 2 seasons ago and us today. I dare say Rotherham…which says it all.
 

No EFL restrictions to hide behind? An interesting phrase. We are what we are. We are where we are. What is there to hide?

I’d be interested to see who would win out of a match between PW promotion winning side 2 seasons ago and us today. I dare say Rotherham…which says it all. Yeah, it says we nearly went out of business and are building from the ground up with a Manager who's not yet had a full season in charge. PW had years at Rotherham to build his squad - he's not even had a full season here yet. 
 

[sage]

4 minutes ago, Raich Carter said:

No EFL restrictions to hide behind? An interesting phrase. We are what we are. We are where we are. What is there to hide?

I’d be interested to see who would win out of a match between PW promotion winning side 2 seasons ago and us today. I dare say Rotherham…which says it all. Yeah, it says we nearly went out of business and are building from the ground up with a Manager who's not yet had a full season in charge. PW had years at Rotherham to build his squad - he's not even had a full season here yet. 
 

PW won promotion in his first full season.

[TomTom92]

1 hour ago, Raich Carter said:

No EFL restrictions to hide behind? An interesting phrase. We are what we are. We are where we are. What is there to hide?

I’d be interested to see who would win out of a match between PW promotion winning side 2 seasons ago and us today. I dare say Rotherham…which says it all. Yeah, it says we nearly went out of business and are building from the ground up with a Manager who's not yet had a full season in charge. PW had years at Rotherham to build his squad - he's not even had a full season here yet. 
 

In relation to us not being able to spend transfer funds and the fact we only have a certain budget. Once the restrictions are lifted we'll see how much wonga Clowes is prepared to spend. I'm not saying for a second that the war chest should come out, but if we're still in league 1 then I think we may need to spend a bit more to at least get us back to a level were the club should be. As Charlton and Portsmouth are showing, if you don't go up sooner rather than later then you can get stuck and to have us stuck in league 1 would be a travesty.

I'd argue our budget would be close to Warne's at Rotherham. Obviously I have no proof, but they ran/run a tight ship. You may be happy just to have a club and are willing to wait as long as it takes to move forward. But there's no patience in football these days and every season without glory is a season wasted. 

 

[davenportram]

Was it not a two year business plan agreed as part of coming out of administration?