Summer Rumour Mill

[Srg]

12 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Shocked by the amount of negativity towards Bird. I think he’s one of the most cultured and technically gifted players we’ve produced in years and would much rather hold onto him over Knight or Sibley.

Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll see the best of him under PW; he seems to favour the Bryson/Knight type of midfielder from what I’ve seen so far. My only hope for him in the immediate is that Warne can give him the Barlaser treatment as the 1 in a 3-1-4-2

Don't get your second paragraph there. Warne has said how important Bird is in the past and you can't have a team of one or the other type. Bird has all the tools to be better than Barlaser and he was a player Warne liked a lot. 

Just think this pigeon-holing and presumptions over what Warne does and doesn't like is getting a bit daft.

[ram59]

6 hours ago, Stuniverse said:

 

On the other hand, there’s a gamble to be had here in that if we don’t sell Knight, and we get promotion, he may be willing to stay and sign a new contract in the Championship with Derby but, if we don’t go up, or he’s unwilling to extend his stay, he can leave for nothing next summer.

Not true, as Knight is one of our academy products, as long as we offer him a new improved contract next year, we will be entitled to compensation decided by an independent body, if we can't agree a price with his new club.

Many factors contribute to this compensation figure including international caps, appearances for Derby and at what level, details of the new contract offered, etc. This applies to players under the age of 24. Once it goes to the independent panel, their decision is final and neither the buying nor the selling club can pull out of the deal.

[Nuwtfly]

4 minutes ago, Srg said:

Don't get your second paragraph there. Warne has said how important Bird is in the past and you can't have a team of one or the other type. Bird has all the tools to be better than Barlaser and he was a player Warne liked a lot. 

Just think this pigeon-holing and presumptions over what Warne does and doesn't like is getting a bit daft.

So you do get what I’m saying, but just disagree with it?

For what it’s worth, I hope you’re right and I’m wrong. But it’s not a presumption, it’s based on what I’ve seen from us so far, and from Bird, under PW.

I should add as well: I’m not saying I hope Bird can be as good as DB - just that I think he’s only real hope in this team will be to fit into the same role that DB did for Warne at Rotherham. He obviously has the tools and ability to be a far superior player if coached right.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Nuwtfly

[duncanjwitham]

8 minutes ago, Srg said:

Don't get your second paragraph there. Warne has said how important Bird is in the past and you can't have a team of one or the other type. Bird has all the tools to be better than Barlaser and he was a player Warne liked a lot. 

Just think this pigeon-holing and presumptions over what Warne does and doesn't like is getting a bit daft.

Warne also came out and openly said something along the lines of "Bird is a box-to-box midfielder, he just doesn't know it yet", which suggests to me he has no intention of using Bird to his strengths.

[Caerphilly Ram]

1 minute ago, duncanjwitham said:

Warne also came out and openly said something along the lines of "Bird is a box-to-box midfielder, he just doesn't know it yet", which suggests to me he has no intention of using Bird to his strengths.

Or he sees additional strengths for Bird to make better use of? Bird is still young and can learn and grow into a new role. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Caerphilly Ram

[jimtastic56]

2 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Warne also came out and openly said something along the lines of "Bird is a box-to-box midfielder, he just doesn't know it yet", which suggests to me he has no intention of using Bird to his strengths.

Perhaps Warne has spent 6 months trying to get Bird to run , but it has been to no avail. Birds “Strenth” is passing the ball sideways.

[Ghost of Clough]

44 minutes ago, S8TY said:

Rather than keep on throwing stats about do you actually think Bird is going to be the main player in midfield for us ?

i watch every game like you and he goes missing at times and needs to look forward at times also 

I’m not slagging Bird off or Knight even what I’m saying is I don’t think both of them contribute enough attacking wise including goals …not regurgitating anything …it’s an opinion based on what I see with and without the ball 

if I had to generate funds one of Bird or Knight would go 

I personally would’nt pay any more than 1.5m for either that’s just my view 

i do think that Bird has more potential to become a better midfielder than Knight if he were to look forward more I don’t think he’s a CDM even if he’s played there 

Rather than dismiss the statistical facts, why don't you construct an argument on something other than blind feeling? I've presented facts which show we don't need higher goal contributions from midfield. We exceeded Plymouth's tally from last season, on par with Ipswich from last season (their team scored 101 in total!), and roughly on par with what Warne has historically got from his midfield when in L1.

You state Bird should look forward more, yet I've shown how he actually has more open play assists than Hourihane, and many of the other players who have been suggested.

You previously used Dack as an example of what you expect from your midfielders. You completely ignore the fact he was mostly used as an AM/SS, which would be in the 2 behind the CF in our 3421.

[Nuwtfly]

4 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Or he sees additional strengths for Bird to make better use of? Bird is still young and can learn and grow into a new role. 

From what you’ve seen from Bird in the last few years, does he strike you as the type of player that can play that role?

Feels a little bit like the way Pearson tried to use Will Hughes to me. 

I like PW a lot and I think he’ll get us promoted, but let’s not be naive to the fact that he does clearly have a way of playing that will suit some a lot more than others. That’s not to say one way is good and the other isn’t; it’s just football.

[Wolfie20]

I think we're making the same mistake with Max Bird (irrespective of who the manager is) as we did for much of the time we had Will Hughes - we play them far too deep. For me, neither are good enough defensively to protect the defence but play them 20 yards further forward and they are more than capable of picking the right pass in the opposition half. Bird in particular would benefit from a more advanced role, providing more shooting chances which he is more than capable of converting into a decent number of goals over the season.

Bielik would be the ideal defensive midfielder but I fear we're unlikely to see him in a Rams shirt again.

[May Contain Nuts]

With the Bird debate raging again, whether he is or isn't suitable for a Warne team, whether he can act more as a box-to-box midfielder than a sitting playmaker...

Was this a one-off game or proof of what he could become under Warne? There certainly seemed to be a feeling that it would be the latter, but as the season went on we didn't really see it repeated much again and the debate seems to have reset itself.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Caerphilly Ram]

20 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

From what you’ve seen from Bird in the last few years, does he strike you as the type of player that can play that role?

Feels a little bit like the way Pearson tried to use Will Hughes to me. 

I like PW a lot and I think he’ll get us promoted, but let’s not be naive to the fact that he does clearly have a way of playing that will suit some a lot more than others. That’s not to say one way is good and the other isn’t; it’s just football.

It’s only my opinion and I know very well lots of people will be quick to disagree, but I think he can play a box to box role. He can pass, he can tackle, he can run and he has a shot in his locker that he doesn’t use often enough. 
Playing in a midfield 2, with a slightly more athletic/mobile back 3 than we had last year I can see Bird being able to get forward a bit more. It’s about having the discipline and know how as to when to go forward and when to sit in. He’s calm (aside from that one red card I can recall from a mistimed challenge), intelligent, and has a bit of a physical presence despite being quite slight in build.

If I’m proved wrong I’ll happily admit it, I just don’t get the urgency with which some people want to dismiss Bird and speak about him in such absolutes. 

[Rich3478]

Bird just doesn’t have enough impact on games for me. Passes safely very well. Rarely takes on a risky ball. Doesn’t run into the box from midfield hardly at all, has a great shot, but see it fleetingly.

Is not great defensively either, very one paced.

is a nice footballer but need a bit more than that. 

[vonwright]

I'm probably not the biggest fan of Warne's overall tactical approach but I think it's very easy to caricature. 

I think Warne fully appreciates what a player like Bird can do, but also thinks he needs to try to add some mobility, strength and endurance. 

And he might well be right. Most of the best players of Bird's type also tend to be pretty mobile and high-energy these days. It's very hard to get away with 'just' being a great user of the ball.

Generally everything Warne's said about Bird suggests he's a big fan. Yet he doesn't fit the caricature of a Warne team at all. So maybe the caricature is exactly that. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by vonwright

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

7 hours ago, Ambitious said:

I can't remember that quote from Cocu, personally, plus with him coaching the likes of Memphis Depay, Steven Bergwijn and Donyell Malen (amongst others) at the same stage (18-19) I would find it very difficult to believe. Max Bird was always the one who seemed to get the most praise from Cocu, then Rooney in my recollection. 

It remains to be seen what Jason Knight does with his career and what Derby does with the money from any sale. If it was my decision I would look to gain as much value from the deal as possible and reinvest in the team, obviously your stance is very different - you see him as a catalyst to winning promotion next season.

After the Norwich away game .  We won 1-0

[Gerry Daly]

1 hour ago, duncanjwitham said:

Warne also came out and openly said something along the lines of "Bird is a box-to-box midfielder, he just doesn't know it yet", which suggests to me he has no intention of using Bird to his strengths.

Well I disagree that Bird cannot be a box to box midfielder if that's what you are saying. I think his strengths have been nullified by managers playing him in a holding or 'pivot' role. When he drives forward with the ball to the edge of the box he is a real threat. Hourihane is a good passer of the ball but Bird is the best in the club. He is the best player we have and I'm sure Warne knows that  

[S8TY]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Rather than dismiss the statistical facts, why don't you construct an argument on something other than blind feeling? I've presented facts which show we don't need higher goal contributions from midfield. We exceeded Plymouth's tally from last season, on par with Ipswich from last season (their team scored 101 in total!), and roughly on par with what Warne has historically got from his midfield when in L1.

You state Bird should look forward more, yet I've shown how he actually has more open play assists than Hourihane, and many of the other players who have been suggested.

You previously used Dack as an example of what you expect from your midfielders. You completely ignore the fact he was mostly used as an AM/SS, which would be in the 2 behind the CF in our 3421.

No I said I’m not a big fan what I’m saying is we can’t have a midfieId devoid of goals …that what we’d have with knight and Bird 

I don’t see Bird as a Bannan type midfielder he’s not quick or defensively astute at times ..but saying that he’s not a bad player of course 

what I’ve said from the start is we need goals in midfieId so playing both knight and Bird would mean the emphasis is on forwards to get the goals 

so I’d look for someone different meaning losing Bird or Knight …IF we reinvest the money correctly it could be good business 

[May Contain Nuts]

6 minutes ago, Gerry Daly said:

Well I disagree that Bird cannot be a box to box midfielder if that's what you are saying. I think his strengths have been nullified by managers playing him in a holding or 'pivot' role. When he drives forward with the ball to the edge of the box he is a real threat. Hourihane is a good passer of the ball but Bird is the best in the club. He is the best player we have and I'm sure Warne knows that  

...so the question remains, just what is it stopping Bird (barring brief flashes) showing this ability for any sustained period of time? Why didn't he continue to 'kick on' in this regard as the season went on, even under Warne?

We know he can do it, he knows he can do it, Warne knows he can do it... what's stopping him?

(Again that's not to say he didn't provide a valuable contribution throughout the season, but we're talking about him really asserting his presence, taking games by the scruff of the neck)

Edited June 27, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[sage]

3 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

...so the question remains, just what is it stopping Bird (barring brief flashes) showing this ability for any sustained period of time? Why didn't he continue to 'kick on' in this regard as the season went on, even under Warne?

We know he can do it, he knows he can do it, Warne knows he can do it... what's stopping him?

(Again that's not to say he didn't provide a valuable contribution throughout the season, but we're talking about him really asserting his presence, taking games by the scruff of the neck)

In open play he was our best midfielder last season IMO. He is still quite young, change of manager and playing style and a new dividsion to adapt to. He will be better next year and be our best CM again.  

[MackworthRamIsGod]

5 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

C'mon someone must have been spotted down B&Q or Bubbles recently?! 😄

I've just bumped into my racist neighbour in Asda, he'd be lethal on the right wing.

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, Kokosnuss said:

With the Bird debate raging again, whether he is or isn't suitable for a Warne team, whether he can act more as a box-to-box midfielder than a sitting playmaker...

Was this a one-off game or proof of what he could become under Warne? There certainly seemed to be a feeling that it would be the latter, but as the season went on we didn't really see it repeated much again and the debate seems to have reset itself.

Was that our 2nd game playing 352? Warne wanted 3 bix to box midfielders at the time. It didn't last much longer and we went back to 4231, which most of us felt suited us best at the time. Perhaps we'll get more from Bird again once we've signed more players capable of playing in that system.