The Sibley Enigma

[Yani P]

He really does need to show consistency in his game...he is very easy to drop at the moment. Just needs a good performance then back that up with a couple more. He just hasn't done that yet.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Yani P

[DavesaRam]

On 30/10/2022 at 10:18, ramboy63 said:

The problem we have RoyMac5 is you can say the same about Sibley he as flattered to deceive for to long now and we have had numerous managers in charge and everyone as refrained from selecting him for any period of time

“Everyone has refrained from selecting him for any period of time” translates to “he has never been given a run of games in his best position”. It seems almost any other player can underperform, match after match, but still keep getting picked.  But not Sibbers - even when he was our most likely to score the other night, and playing well but was rewarded by being put into a ridiculous position in the team, a position he had never played before. Usually he is rewarded for playing well by being dropped. Just think how many matches Hourihane is been picked for, despite completely underwhelming us in nearly all of them. Why wasn’t he “Sibley’d” ages ago?

If he ever gets his run of games playing off the target man and doesn’t perform then fair enough - bin him off. “All we are saying is GIVE HIM A CHANCE”.

Well that’s what I’m saying, anyway. And I will shut up if he gets his chance but doesn’t take it.

[Anag Ram]

I keep reading how Sibley’s problems are caused by him playing out of position. I would ask how that stops him from

a) being able to tackle 

b) being able to control a football 

and

c) being able to take chances when they come his way?
 

The lad has talent and for sure this will be helped by him being played in his preferred position but until he gets the basics right, he can’t really dictate when and where he plays.

[Ghost of Clough]

7 hours ago, Anag Ram said:

I keep reading how Sibley’s problems are caused by him playing out of position. I would ask how that stops him from

a) being able to tackle 

b) being able to control a football 

and

c) being able to take chances when they come his way?
 

The lad has talent and for sure this will be helped by him being played in his preferred position but until he gets the basics right, he can’t really dictate when and where he plays.

Can't tackle but still makes more tackles per 90 than any of our midfielders.

Fewer unsafe touches than McGoldrick, Dobbin and Osula and dispossessed less than Dobbin and McGoldrick.

You could say the same about Dobbin, who hasn't taken any of his chances in the league.

[RoyMac5]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Can't tackle but still makes more tackles per 90 than any of our midfielders.

Fewer unsafe touches than McGoldrick, Dobbin and Osula and dispossessed less than Dobbin and McGoldrick.

You could say the same about Dobbin, who hasn't taken any of his chances in the league.

Apparently, you can't say it about Dobbin though. I suppose it shows the benefit of sending youngsters out on loan, fans give them more leeway.

[CBRammette]

2 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Can't tackle but still makes more tackles per 90 than any of our midfielders.

Fewer unsafe touches than McGoldrick, Dobbin and Osula and dispossessed less than Dobbin and McGoldrick.

You could say the same about Dobbin, who hasn't taken any of his chances in the league.

The annoying thing if he leaves is that all those constantly criticising him will moan about the low fee and at him for leaving then boo him on his return.

He is still young and wont get to learn his trade when constantly in and out at different positions with different messages.  

[BathRam72]

Might be controversial and will attract some comeback. But his rise reminds me of a certain Will Hughes. At a young age he looked way above his peers and stood out as ready to perform at the required level much earlier than expected. As he matured/aged nothing really improved.

I know there will be ones of you who will say that Will went onto a premier side, but what is he actually achieving?

It was not so long ago that a few bottom premier sides were looking at Sibley and he could have gone the same way.

[Tamworthram]

9 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Apparently, you can't say it about Dobbin though. I suppose it shows the benefit of sending youngsters out on loan, fans give them more leeway.

I don’t think you can really compare Dobbin with Sibley yet. Perhaps we would be saying the same about him if he’d been in and out of the team for the last  three years as Sibley has. As far as I can see, Dobbin only made three competitive first team appearances before coming to Derby and at least one of those(his debut) was as a late sub.

[RoyMac5]

21 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

I don’t think you can really compare Dobbin with Sibley yet. Perhaps we would be saying the same about him if he’d been in and out of the team for the last  three years as Sibley has. As far as I can see, Dobbin only made three competitive first team appearances before coming to Derby and at least one of those(his debut) was as a late sub.

Who did Dobbin play for?

[Ghost of Clough]

19 minutes ago, CBRammette said:

The annoying thing if he leaves is that all those constantly criticising him will moan about the low fee and at him for leaving then boo him on his return.

He is still young and wont get to learn his trade when constantly in and out at different positions with different messages.  

That sound remarkably like another youngster who we sold cheaply, was mismanaged, was only given a few minutes at the end of games and played out of position.

Whittaker's started to show his potential exactly when I expected him to.
19/20 - he needed to have a full season at U23 level. 
20/21 - would have been his first taste of being a squad player 
21/22 - he would have been a rotation player 
22/23 - first choice wide forward

Instead, he didn't get the game time he needed at U23 level, then messed around in our first team by playing him either at CF or LW when he should have played on the right. It's not wonder he wanted to leave to get regular first team football. Most of the blame is on Rooney.

 

It's been very similar for Sibley.
19/20 - given game time at just the right time, and hit the ground running.
20/21 - Should have been a rotation player, playing about 50% of the available minutes. Instead he was limited to just 25% (1035 minutes out of 4140), with 211 minutes during the first 3 games. He was made the scapegoat, dropped, and never given a consistent run in the side ever again.
21/22 - Should have been cementing his place as a regular starter, except he only played 71 minutes more than the season before.

LW, RW, even CF... that's not where we'll get the most from him. He needs to be the most advanced in a midfield three/ Let him drive forward with the ball at his feet through the middle of the pitch.

I'm hoping Warne is smart enough to realise where he's best, and the recent games at CF, LWB and LW are just a bit of desperation due to injuries and suspensions.

[Tamworthram]

43 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Who did Dobbin play for?

I’ll save you effort of googling him: Everton

[RoyMac5]

8 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

I’ll save you effort of googling him: Everton

I didn't need to google it. So he's played for Everton, a Prem club. Some of their fans wanted him to stay with them not go on loan, based on what they'd seen. I see he needs lots more games and more end product. I don't see why he's more likely to do that with us than Sibley is.

Edited November 1, 2022 by RoyMac5

[Srg]

1 hour ago, BathRam72 said:

Might be controversial and will attract some comeback. But his rise reminds me of a certain Will Hughes. At a young age he looked way above his peers and stood out as ready to perform at the required level much earlier than expected. As he matured/aged nothing really improved.

I know there will be ones of you who will say that Will went onto a premier side, but what is he actually achieving?

It was not so long ago that a few bottom premier sides were looking at Sibley and he could have gone the same way.

Don't remotely agree with any of this. Will was a far better player than Sibley, and still is. injuries derailed him, but he was consistently Watford's best player (didn't he get the armband? might be misremembering that).

[FKANorwichExile]

48 minutes ago, Srg said:

Don't remotely agree with any of this. Will was a far better player than Sibley, and still is. injuries derailed him, but he was consistently Watford's best player (didn't he get the armband? might be misremembering that).

Will has/had a higher ceiling than Sibs, but the things we saw as his greatest assets (vision, technique, control) never stood out for Watford or Palace, instead he's ended up as a snappy ball-winner and valued for his workrate.

I see elements of that in Sibs for sure, maybe even Knight. They've got all the right start points, a great foundation, but what do they excel at? The blame is on the club for not polishing the diamond.

 

 

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

I didn't need to google it. So he's played for Everton, a Prem club. Some of their fans wanted him to stay with them not go on loan, based on what they'd seen. I see he needs lots more games and more end product. I don't see why he's more likely to do that with us than Sibley is.

As far as I can see, he’s only played 32 minutes (over 3 games) for the Everton first team before joining us on loan. So, any Everton fans wanting him to stay rather than go out on loan (how many is “some of their fans”?) are probably basing it on his U23 performances. Perhaps, and I’m not saying I agree but then I’m not a qualified or experienced football manager/coach, Warne thinks Dobbin will adjust and learn quickly and add more than Sibley does.

[Srg]

2 minutes ago, NorwichExile said:

Will has/had a higher ceiling than Sibs, but the things we saw as his greatest assets (vision, technique, control) never stood out for Watford or Palace, instead he's ended up as a snappy ball-winner and valued for his workrate.

I see elements of that in Sibs for sure, maybe even Knight. They've got all the right start points, a great foundation, but what do they excel at? The blame is on the club for not polishing the diamond.

 

 

Well, as I just said, those attributes did, and he was loved by their fans too. Injuries kind of pushed him back though, and he went into more of a sitting midfielder role.

[RoyMac5]

Just now, Tamworthram said:

As far as I can see, he’s only played 32 minutes (over 3 games) for the Everton first team before joining us on loan. So, any Everton fans wanting him to stay rather than go out on loan (how many is “some of their fans”?) are probably basing it on his U23 performances. Perhaps, and I’m not saying I agree but then I’m not a qualified or experienced football manager/coach, Warne thinks Dobbin will adjust and learn quickly and add more than Sibley does.

Perhaps he does, you'd think so as he keeps preferring him.

As for the Everton fans, it was when Lampard was doing spectacularly poorly and they'd an injured strikeforce.

For me Dobbin has pace and tricks but less in the way of finishing than Sibley. If Sibs isn't the brightest apple in the barrel then Dobs looks like he matches him. Just my opinion and as you say Warne thinks differently.

[Srg]

3 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

As far as I can see, he’s only played 32 minutes (over 3 games) for the Everton first team before joining us on loan. So, any Everton fans wanting him to stay rather than go out on loan (how many is “some of their fans”?) are probably basing it on his U23 performances. Perhaps, and I’m not saying I agree but then I’m not a qualified or experienced football manager/coach, Warne thinks Dobbin will adjust and learn quickly and add more than Sibley does.

Don't think it's got anything to do with that. It's purely on attributes. Dobbin brings pace, and the ability to play wide if necessary. Sibley can't really do that. They're completely different types of player, so the comparison is pretty pointless.

[Tamworthram]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

Perhaps he does, you'd think so as he keeps preferring him.

As for the Everton fans, it was when Lampard was doing spectacularly poorly and they'd an injured strikeforce.

For me Dobbin has pace and tricks but less in the way of finishing than Sibley. If Sibs isn't the brightest apple in the barrel then Dobs looks like he matches him. Just my opinion and as you say Warne thinks differently.

As I say, he only appeared 3 times for Everton in the league and only for a total of 30 minutes. So I’m not sure how they could form such a positive opinion of him regardless of how the team were performing. 
 

For the record, as I said earlier, I’m yet to be convinced about Dobbin but my point is, he is a couple of years behind Sibley in terms of his playing career and if he’d been in and around the squad for three years as well then he’d probably face the same level of criticism.

[BathRam72]

1 hour ago, Srg said:

Don't remotely agree with any of this. Will was a far better player than Sibley, and still is. injuries derailed him, but he was consistently Watford's best player (didn't he get the armband? might be misremembering that).

That is fine, I wasn't necessarily comparing them parse it was merely to point out that Will looked VERY VERY VERY good as a youngster and everyone was tipping him for the top. Didn't quite happen. The same can at the moment be said for Sibley.