Paul Warne appointed as Head Coach

[Tyler Durden]

4 minutes ago, alram said:

to be fair isn't that why he was brought in? he has experience at working in the lower end of the market. he didnt arrive or expected to be throwing the cash around.

 

pretty much every club at this levels squad is made up of loans and frees. the only team that spend any decent amount of money was ipswich and that was still only 2 million.

Noooo that's another fallacy of Warne, look at the Rotherham fans forum, look at the comments more well informed posters have made on here - when he was at Rotherham he wasn't working on a shoestring budget, he was working on one of the larger ones in League 1.

So no he's not versed in working at the lower end of the market as you put it.

Which is why he needs his own transfer window in the summer (which he hasn't had yet) plus some actual cash to spend (which may be unlikely next season)

So until he's had both can the judgements please be reserved.

[Wolfie20]

Now I'm really worried!!!

I'm finding myself agreeing with @Tyler Durden more and more often  😄

[RoyMac5]

23 minutes ago, Wolfie20 said:

Sadly it probably is. There's a handful of posters just itching for Warne to fail so they can say "there, I told you he was no good" - to justify their own negative agendas. No pre-season and no meaningful transfer window to bring in players he really wants rather than available loans and freebies yet, in a tiny minority of cases, not being given a fair opportunity to prove he and his staff are worthy of being Mr Clowes' choice as manager. 

You really like to spin a yarn don't you. 😂 Just because there are posters making comments that you see as 'anti-Warne and his staff', perhaps you'd like to consider a fact that there has been poor results recently and there are limited ways to make this look as rosy as you seem to see it. I'm not waiting for him to fail, it's not about him it's about Derby County, I want success for the Club we all support.

Edited April 13, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Wolfie20]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

You really like to spin a yarn don't you. 😂 Just because there are posters making comments that you see as 'anti-Warne and his staff', perhaps you'd like to consider a fact that there has been poor results recently and there are limited ways to make this look as rosy as you seem to see it. I'm not waiting for him to fail, it's not about him it's about Derby County, I want success for the Club we all support.

There are instances when I have to really wonder with some posters. 

[Rich3478]

19 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Noooo that's another fallacy of Warne, look at the Rotherham fans forum, look at the comments more well informed posters have made on here - when he was at Rotherham he wasn't working on a shoestring budget, he was working on one of the larger ones in League 1.

So no he's not versed in working at the lower end of the market as you put it.

Which is why he needs his own transfer window in the summer (which he hasn't had yet) plus some actual cash to spend (which may be unlikely next season)

So until he's had both can the judgements please be reserved.

Do we just ignore the january transfer window because it wasn’t very good?

[Tyler Durden]

2 minutes ago, Rich3478 said:

Do we just ignore the january transfer window because it wasn’t very good?

I mentioned the summer transfer window as that's the main window of the year.

And Warne will have had time to run his eye over the players he's currently got before that window which he also didn't have the opportunity to do thus far. 

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, Rich3478 said:

Do we just ignore the january transfer window because it wasn’t very good?

I think there are points to talk about. That (I think it was in the DET twitter feed or RD, can't remember) there was a suggestion that some players were turned down as they were seen as not 'good enough' (my words). That we were chasing a striker who went elsewhere for more money. The loans we did bring in. Etc...

Edited April 13, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Caerphilly Ram]

40 minutes ago, Archied said:

Has our academy done the club too many favours over the last 5 years ? Players nicked for next to nothing , players we claim are much better than what they are actually producing at league one level , mel was obsessed with the academy and on paper in principle it seemed a good thing but it’s not really done us much good , seems to me that apart from The odd case here and there academies only really work for the likes of chelsea Man City Man U who gobble up the top talent including the best from smaller clubs academies and put them on large wages and make money from loaning them out until the gems show themselves 

The academy has done us some good as we’ve been able to put a team out for the last few seasons using players from the academy and we were able to sell some players in order to keep the lights on longer during those dark days. I think it would have done us more good if Morris’ best decision (the academy) hadn’t been hamstrung by all his other rubbish decisions and behaviour.

We wouldn’t have lost the players we did for peanuts if the club was on a sounder footing. I do think as part of the wider regulation of football that’s clearly necessary more should be done to protect the academies of “smaller clubs” (compared to those you mentioned) and promote more sustainable development of youth across the sport. 
 

There’s still plenty of time for the academy to benefit the club, as with everything else I think it’s going to need a bit more time and focus to recover from the last few years. 

[Rich3478]

38 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I think there are points to talk about. That (I think it was in the DET twitter feed or RD, can't remember) there was a suggestion that some players were turned down as they were seen as not 'good enough' (my words). That we were chasing a striker who went elsewhere for more money. The loans we did bring in. Etc...

Agree it wasn’t a total bust, but just think the whole idea we don’t even count it as a window for warne is a bit much.

No striker a poor decision. Regardless of let down

springett has added very little

Bird got injured and white signed next day I think so shows was a bit of room. 
white been ok but not improved us. But is playing in a struggling team lately.

[Archied]

17 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

The academy has done us some good as we’ve been able to put a team out for the last few seasons using players from the academy and we were able to sell some players in order to keep the lights on longer during those dark days. I think it would have done us more good if Morris’ best decision (the academy) hadn’t been hamstrung by all his other rubbish decisions and behaviour.

We wouldn’t have lost the players we did for peanuts if the club was on a sounder footing. I do think as part of the wider regulation of football that’s clearly necessary more should be done to protect the academies of “smaller clubs” (compared to those you mentioned) and promote more sustainable development of youth across the sport. 
 

There’s still plenty of time for the academy to benefit the club, as with everything else I think it’s going to need a bit more time and focus to recover from the last few years. 

Of course I agree to some good but the truth is that in the main the real gems get picked up and poached from smaller club’s academies by the top of the money tree clubs and we end up mainly with mediocre players comming through , im all for academies but as you say they’re really needs to be massive change in regulations to stop it being a break even venture for clubs like us

[FlyBritishMidland]

31 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

The academy has done us some good as we’ve been able to put a team out for the last few seasons using players from the academy and we were able to sell some players in order to keep the lights on longer during those dark days. I think it would have done us more good if Morris’ best decision (the academy) hadn’t been hamstrung by all his other rubbish decisions and behaviour.

We wouldn’t have lost the players we did for peanuts if the club was on a sounder footing. I do think as part of the wider regulation of football that’s clearly necessary more should be done to protect the academies of “smaller clubs” (compared to those you mentioned) and promote more sustainable development of youth across the sport. 
 

There’s still plenty of time for the academy to benefit the club, as with everything else I think it’s going to need a bit more time and focus to recover from the last few years. 

Let’s not forget, the academy was getting pretty well developed when the bald man took over.  Yes, he put a lot of money into it and had the aspiration of half the team coming from the academy, one of his better ideas.  The real groundwork was started by Nigel Clough in 2008.  He brought Wassall in and improved the scouting in the local area - I seem to remember him saying that  he couldn’t understand why all the best local lads were going to other clubs.

In my mind, administration, us needing to sell the youngsters cheap or for nothing as we couldn’t offer a contract or any guarantees we’d still exist has put us back to 2008.  We are starting all over again.  I’d be very surprised if any players of note came through in the next 5 years.

As for the debate about Warne and Rotherham’s academy it’s a bit academic given the poison we’re in as I’ve said above.  Plus, the first team, which is really the shop window for the club, is going to need continual work over the next few years.  And comparing Rotherham’s academy and ours is not really comparing apples with apples.  He can only bring them through if they’re of the right quality and that’s the job of the academy manager and his team.  We will have better facilities, better coaches, etc, therefore attracting better players.  This in turn gives Warne more options and an an improved level of quality to choose from.  This will rely on continual investment and I’m sure DC will want to his best to make this happen.  It may quite simply be the case that Warne really wanted to have some academy players in the first team, but the quality simply wasn’t there.  Truth is, none of us will ever know.

[G STAR RAM]

9 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

 

Exactly, that’s the mischievous art you have mastered, saying nothing wrong but leading your hapless following into a swamp of flawed logic and disingenuity. It’s like Boris and the bus.

You really should leave the drinking until later on in the day if its going to be making you post nonesense like this.

The most magnificent sleight of hand is the suggestion that ‘aim to be established back in the championship within 5 years’ (note ‘within’) implies that there would be little or no appetite for promotion as soon as possible  

Where does that imply there is little or no appetite for promotion as soon as possible? To become established in the Championship I'd see as having been there for at least 2 years, meaning we would need to have been promoted by year 3 at the latest. The only 'sleight of hand' here is from you afraid by atttubuting something to me which I clearly have no either said or implied.

Not to mention that it’s a stretch to contend that manager selection was ‘based on that metric’ (what ‘metric’?), because DC’s objective in making the statement was surely to manage your and my expectations. You would be on stronger ground arguing that the timing of LR’s departure (he was given less time than we all expected) makes it absolutely clear that DC would take promotion at the earliest opportunity. 

Once again, where have I said that it was the metric that manager selection was based on?

I'd assume manager selection was based on previous performance but obviously you cannot judge a manager on previous performance only on what they do in their current job, hence DC setting a sensible, in my opinion, metric, given the obstacles that PW will face in his first 2 seasons of managing the club.

I do think play offs should have been achievable this season, just in case you wondered what my own metrics are.
 

... maybe you did say something wrong though: my recollection is that the 5 year comment came well after PW’s appointment (but I might have missed it at the time). Do you recall when he said it?

Not sure of the relevance. DC has publicly stated what he expects, when it was said is of no consequence. Obviously if you can find earlier comments where DC says he wants immediate promotion, which is what you seem to be hinting at, then that would put things in a different light.

[G STAR RAM]

On 12/04/2023 at 19:00, Tyler Durden said:

the root cause of our demise was Morris' financial mismanagement of the club and gambling on outcomes that never transpired. 

Not to mention the odds of the gamble being changed after the bet had already been settled...

[Ghost of Clough]

4 hours ago, Oldben said:

I think it does because its saying that it's rare to find a gem amongst the academy. Based on our academy team this season, I'd struggle to find any gems. Take a look at our academy league position, it's not impressive.

I don't entirely blame the academy for that, we sold a lot of quality for little financial return over the last five years.

I think the academy will take a while to recover, that's not happening without solid investment and it takes time.

I don't blame Warne for not trusting in academy talent but then that leaves us with players at the end of their careers who might also be injury prone and must be free agents and then we have loan players.

Loan players gong to teams to develop experience, not because they are the finished article or because they will always work out when they are playing regular first team football.

We already had Cashin, Bird, Knight, Sibley and Thompson in the first team - Thompson loaned out to non-League strugglers due to Warne not giving him game time to develop in the first team

Cybulski, Stretton and Rooney on the fringes. Cybulski sent out on a series of loans and Stretton sold when we didn't have a 3rd choice CF, despite Warne favouring 2 CF starters. Rooney spent the majority of the season in no match days squads, rather than staying match fit in the U21s.

Then the likes of Evans, Robinson, Hawkins, Aghatise, Richards in the U21s, and Thompson, Moloney, Brown, Davidson and Wheeldon in the U18s. 

The evidence is there which proves Warne has no experience with developing academy graduates. That's not to say he can't, because Rotherham's academy is almost nonexistent. They were recently ranked 24th out of all Category 3 academies. However, the pattern so far suggests he's taking the same approach with our Category 1 youngsters as Rotherham's Category 3 youngsters - loans to non-league rather than U21 football or the odd first team game.

[ram59]

4 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Noooo that's another fallacy of Warne, look at the Rotherham fans forum, look at the comments more well informed posters have made on here - when he was at Rotherham he wasn't working on a shoestring budget, he was working on one of the larger ones in League 1.

So no he's not versed in working at the lower end of the market as you put it.

Which is why he needs his own transfer window in the summer (which he hasn't had yet) plus some actual cash to spend (which may be unlikely next season)

So until he's had both can the judgements please be reserved.

Whilst he wasn't working at the lower end of the market, he also wasn't working at the top end of the market either. He gained promotion competing with the likes of Sunderland, Sheff Wed, Ipswich, Bolton and Portsmouth, all of which had attendances and income well above that of Rotherham.

[Tyler Durden]

9 minutes ago, ram59 said:

Whilst he wasn't working at the lower end of the market, he also wasn't working at the top end of the market either. He gained promotion competing with the likes of Sunderland, Sheff Wed, Ipswich, Bolton and Portsmouth, all of which had attendances and income well above that of Rotherham.

I got this quote from at article in The Athletic from about a year ago regards Rotherhams season that far:-

Even so, this has been a remarkable campaign for a team with the 10th-largest budget in the division fighting on two fronts as they prepare to play League Two opponents Sutton United in their first cup final since 1996 on Sunday.

So again not working on a shoestring budget in League 1 as the OP insinuated Warne was used to. 

[Ghost of Clough]

48 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I got this quote from at article in The Athletic from about a year ago regards Rotherhams season that far:-

Even so, this has been a remarkable campaign for a team with the 10th-largest budget in the division fighting on two fronts as they prepare to play League Two opponents Sutton United in their first cup final since 1996 on Sunday.

So again not working on a shoestring budget in League 1 as the OP insinuated Warne was used to. 

I guess that's what happens when the likes of Charlton are allowed to spend £20m on a turnover of less than £10m and Bolton £14m on a £8.5m turnover.

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Exactly, that’s the mischievous art you have mastered, saying nothing wrong but leading your hapless following into a swamp of flawed logic and disingenuity. It’s like Boris and the bus.

You really should leave the drinking until later on in the day if its going to be making you post nonesense like this.

The most magnificent sleight of hand is the suggestion that ‘aim to be established back in the championship within 5 years’ (note ‘within’) implies that there would be little or no appetite for promotion as soon as possible  

Where does that imply there is little or no appetite for promotion as soon as possible? To become established in the Championship I'd see as having been there for at least 2 years, meaning we would need to have been promoted by year 3 at the latest. The only 'sleight of hand' here is from you afraid by atttubuting something to me which I clearly have no either said or implied.

Not to mention that it’s a stretch to contend that manager selection was ‘based on that metric’ (what ‘metric’?), because DC’s objective in making the statement was surely to manage your and my expectations. You would be on stronger ground arguing that the timing of LR’s departure (he was given less time than we all expected) makes it absolutely clear that DC would take promotion at the earliest opportunity. 

Once again, where have I said that it was the metric that manager selection was based on?

I'd assume manager selection was based on previous performance but obviously you cannot judge a manager on previous performance only on what they do in their current job, hence DC setting a sensible, in my opinion, metric, given the obstacles that PW will face in his first 2 seasons of managing the club.

I do think play offs should have been achievable this season, just in case you wondered what my own metrics are.
 

... maybe you did say something wrong though: my recollection is that the 5 year comment came well after PW’s appointment (but I might have missed it at the time). Do you recall when he said it?

Not sure of the relevance. DC has publicly stated what he expects, when it was said is of no consequence. Obviously if you can find earlier comments where DC says he wants immediate promotion, which is what you seem to be hinting at, then that would put things in a different light.

Fair enough. Good post by you 

[ram59]

1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said:

I got this quote from at article in The Athletic from about a year ago regards Rotherhams season that far:-

Even so, this has been a remarkable campaign for a team with the 10th-largest budget in the division fighting on two fronts as they prepare to play League Two opponents Sutton United in their first cup final since 1996 on Sunday.

So again not working on a shoestring budget in League 1 as the OP insinuated Warne was used to. 

Maybe not a shoestring when comparing with clubs at the bottom of league 1, but certainly a shoestring budget when compared with clubs they competed with and beat, to gain promotion.

[Tyler Durden]

1 hour ago, ram59 said:

Maybe not a shoestring when comparing with clubs at the bottom of league 1, but certainly a shoestring budget when compared with clubs they competed with and beat, to gain promotion.

Yer this is turning into semantics now.

A shoestring budget for the league. 

Happy now 😁