The Ukraine War

[Leeds Ram]

 

[Leeds Ram]

 

[Curtains]

Watching  Concert for Ukraine on ITV 

Very emotional 

[BaaLocks]

Interesting though isn't it - I don't remember (might just be getting old and forgetful) a concert for Iraq / Afghanistan / Yemen / Syria. I don't remember seeing Libyan flags flying in the streets during that particular activity. The last time I saw flags like this of another country was after 9/11 - seems when it is in our interest to be seen to be supporting Uncle Sam then the media and all channels pull out every plug and pull on our emotional chains. When it would mean our exposing the damage they themselves cause it gets put firmly under the carpet. (BTW - give to charities supporting Ukranian refugees, do it, they have been put through enough without being victims of our political boycotting).

And, in our sad world of fifteen minute interest it's also noticeable the way traffic had died off on this thread in the last week or so. Maybe it's all been talked out, all views presentend and conclusions reached (which would be an interesting position for a forum to get to - see other threads by way of example). Or maybe Will Smith giving some bloke a slap was all it needed to get us turn our heads in the other direction (and no, I'm not saying he was CIA sponsored for that purporse).

Final point - bloke in the next village has two flags flying in his front garden - a Northern Ireland one and now a Ukraine one. With no hint of irony or realisation. When it suits us eh!

[Wolfie]

30 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

Interesting though isn't it - I don't remember (might just be getting old and forgetful) a concert for Iraq / Afghanistan / Yemen / Syria. I don't remember seeing Libyan flags flying in the streets during that particular activity. The last time I saw flags like this of another country was after 9/11 - seems when it is in our interest to be seen to be supporting Uncle Sam then the media and all channels pull out every plug and pull on our emotional chains. When it would mean our exposing the damage they themselves cause it gets put firmly under the carpet. (BTW - give to charities supporting Ukranian refugees, do it, they have been put through enough without being victims of our political boycotting).

And, in our sad world of fifteen minute interest it's also noticeable the way traffic had died off on this thread in the last week or so. Maybe it's all been talked out, all views presentend and conclusions reached (which would be an interesting position for a forum to get to - see other threads by way of example). Or maybe Will Smith giving some bloke a slap was all it needed to get us turn our heads in the other direction (and no, I'm not saying he was CIA sponsored for that purporse).

 

Maybe traffic on here has fallen because it's reflecting the current stalemate on the ground.

Or maybe it's because people might be interested in talking about Ukraine wihtout being dragged into whataboutery and political history - as per your first paragraph.

[Archied]

45 minutes ago, Wolfie said:

Maybe traffic on here has fallen because it's reflecting the current stalemate on the ground.

Or maybe it's because people might be interested in talking about Ukraine wihtout being dragged into whataboutery and political history - as per your first paragraph.

Perhaps the traffic has fallen because people are at a bit of a loss as to what can be done ,

without what you call whataboutery and political history how do we as people examine our own opinions and perspectives which may in future lead to us as individuals and voters putting pressure for change going forward on our so called leaders??‍♂️
so called whataboutery is definitely something that has often forced me to question why I held certain opinions that I was better for understanding and or changing , why would anyone dismiss this kind of debate unless they were intransigent and closed ?
the only thing I give a stuff about is how this war is brought to an end and how we try to put an end to this stuff keep happening or maybe sadly we are just crap as a species and deserve to inevitably weep ourselves out

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

On 26/03/2022 at 09:26, GboroRam said:

The visa process is so complicated it's really hard to get refugees in. I also read that Ukrainians found in the country with incorrect documentation face up to 4 years imprisonment. 

You'd almost believe it was designed to keep refugees out. 

If in doudt, get them out.

(He says with his foreign passport)

[Coneheadjohn]

2700 visas under the Homes for Ukrainians scheme but no idea how many are actually in England,what a disgrace.

[Leeds Ram]

7 hours ago, Archied said:

Perhaps the traffic has fallen because people are at a bit of a loss as to what can be done ,

without what you call whataboutery and political history how do we as people examine our own opinions and perspectives which may in future lead to us as individuals and voters putting pressure for change going forward on our so called leaders??‍♂️
so called whataboutery is definitely something that has often forced me to question why I held certain opinions that I was better for understanding and or changing , why would anyone dismiss this kind of debate unless they were intransigent and closed ?
the only thing I give a stuff about is how this war is brought to an end and how we try to put an end to this stuff keep happening or maybe sadly we are just crap as a species and deserve to inevitably weep ourselves out

I think it's gone down as people are in their own camps and the debate has gone stale.  There is a difference though between a coherent reflection on contradictions that we seemingly uphold, and just smashing together unrelated events in an attempt to establish a contradiction and give an apologia for what is ducking indefensible quite frankly. One is not whataboutery in its proper form and one really is the lowest form of 'debate'. 

 The issue that I've expressed in the past and will continue to do so is that didn't invade Syria (although we should have intervened) Libya was a UN-sanctioned operation to stop genocide and Afghanistan was a response to attacks that had been made for years by Al-Qaeda and the Taliban were unwilling to stop hosting them. Again, this could be considered as part of a humanitarian intervention doctrine that had gathered steam since the Rwandan genocide when we did nothing and tragedy ensued. The reason why maybe concerts weren't being had for them is that they weren't liberal democratic nations that were being invaded by a hostile authoritarian force that are actively denying their very existence as a nation. 

I'm all up for a discussion of political history but I think that's not what has been had really. 

[Archied]

26 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I think it's gone down as people are in their own camps and the debate has gone stale.  There is a difference though between a coherent reflection on contradictions that we seemingly uphold, and just smashing together unrelated events in an attempt to establish a contradiction and give an apologia for what is ducking indefensible quite frankly. One is not whataboutery in its proper form and one really is the lowest form of 'debate'. 

 The issue that I've expressed in the past and will continue to do so is that didn't invade Syria (although we should have intervened) Libya was a UN-sanctioned operation to stop genocide and Afghanistan was a response to attacks that had been made for years by Al-Qaeda and the Taliban were unwilling to stop hosting them. Again, this could be considered as part of a humanitarian intervention doctrine that had gathered steam since the Rwandan genocide when we did nothing and tragedy ensued. The reason why maybe concerts weren't being had for them is that they weren't liberal democratic nations that were being invaded by a hostile authoritarian force that are actively denying their very existence as a nation. 

I'm all up for a discussion of political history but I think that's not what has been had really. 

I don’t mean this horribly and perhaps you don’t realise it but you post in a manner that you are the teacher and those who don’t see things your way will be marked as an exam fail because you are right , that’s coming from someone who has found value in lots of different posts from different perspective s , yours included ,

pointing out that we very often don’t hold ourselves and other s to the same standards we demand will always be a valuable part of debate , whataboutery labels are just another fairly modern method used to close down debate , whatever the subject matter , you constantly close your ears and just plough on that people are apologist s for stuff they make clear time and time again is beyond apology and they can never condone ??‍♂️

Edited March 30, 2022 by Archied

[BaaLocks]

18 minutes ago, Archied said:

I don’t mean this horribly and perhaps you don’t realise it but you post in a manner that you are the teacher and those who don’t see things your way will be marked as an exam fail because you are right , that’s coming from someone who has found value in lots of different posts from different perspective s , yours included ,

pointing out that we very often don’t hold ourselves and other s to the same standards we demand will always be a valuable part of debate , whataboutery labels are just another fairly modern method used to close down debate , whatever the subject matter , you constantly close your ears and just plough on that people are apologist s for stuff they make clear time and time again is beyond apology and they can never condone ??‍♂️

Got him / her on ignore now so don't get to see the repetition of the same points again and again.

But I do note from your quote (of their comments - not sure if I should thank you or not for that.....) that it seems refugees are only worth consideration if they are the result of a conflict not started by the US, or when there wasn't an actual invasion. I'm sure those fleeing Aleppo will have been reassured to realise their cause wasn't really a problem because we didn't invade it.

Edited March 30, 2022 by BaaLocks

[Leeds Ram]

30 minutes ago, Archied said:

I don’t mean this horribly and perhaps you don’t realise it but you post in a manner that you are the teacher and those who don’t see things your way will be marked as an exam fail because you are right , that’s coming from someone who has found value in lots of different posts from different perspective s , yours included ,

pointing out that we very often don’t hold ourselves and other s to the same standards we demand will always be a valuable part of debate , whataboutery labels are just another fairly modern method used to close down debate , whatever the subject matter , you constantly close your ears and just plough on that people are apologist s for stuff they make clear time and time again is beyond apology and they can never condone ??‍♂️

I think that's fine if you feel like that and maybe I should try to moderate the tone of my posts. It's one of the things I don't love about social media/online communications is that you can't put a tone into the posts. I probably do come across as a bit of a know it all at times on here and I shall try to reflect on that and change the future tone of my posts. 

Personally, I do think whataboutery as a label can be overused but sometimes it is valid. Just like the call of fascist is oftentimes overused, it doesn't mean sometimes it isn't the correct term to use. I'd agree with you that there is value to be had in reflecting on our own errors or inadequacies, but I think many of the attempts of comparisons fall far short of a valid example. I don't think people have expressly and outwardly defended Putin's decision to go to war (and I don't think I've once made that claim) but I do think people have been producing the 'both sides' argument. Sometimes, there are times when a 'both sides' approach is fine, other times like on this topic it comes across as apologetics quite honestly. 

On the refugee issue, I'd also add that people tend to care more about those closer to home in general. A european war is going to naturally instigate more passion and generosity in wars that are both far away and not actively involved in (like Yemen or Syria). This is no excuse for the Government's response which has been shocking on all accounts (except military aid to Ukraine and the attempt to intervene in Syria) mind you. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Leeds Ram

[Archied]

16 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I think that's fine if you feel like that and maybe I should try to moderate the tone of my posts. It's one of the things I don't love about social media/online communications is that you can't put a tone into the posts. I probably do come across as a bit of a know it all at times on here and I shall try to reflect on that and change the future tone of my posts. 

Personally, I do think whataboutery as a label can be overused but sometimes it is valid. Just like the call of fascist is oftentimes overused, it doesn't mean sometimes it isn't the correct term to use. I'd agree with you that there is value to be had in reflecting on our own errors or inadequacies, but I think many of the attempts of comparisons fall far short of a valid example. I don't think people have expressly and outwardly defended Putin's decision to go to war (and I don't think I've once made that claim) but I do think people have been producing the 'both sides' argument. Sometimes, there are times when a 'both sides' approach is fine, other times like on this topic it comes across as apologetics quite honestly. 

On the refugee issue, I'd also add that people tend to care more about those closer to home in general. A european war is going to naturally instigate more passion and generosity in wars that are both far away and not actively involved in (like Yemen or Syria). This is no excuse for the Government's response which has been shocking on all accounts (except military aid to Ukraine and the attempt to intervene in Syria) mind you. 

I’m happy to adjust my stance to whataboutery is very over used rather than never valid , as I say I personally find it valuable to check my own opinions and where they originate from ,

on this whole topic I realise my knowledge is not the greatest and very simplistic and find most posts of value?‍♂️

[DarkFruitsRam7]

53 minutes ago, Archied said:

I don’t mean this horribly and perhaps you don’t realise it but you post in a manner that you are the teacher and those who don’t see things your way will be marked as an exam fail because you are right , that’s coming from someone who has found value in lots of different posts from different perspective s , yours included ,

pointing out that we very often don’t hold ourselves and other s to the same standards we demand will always be a valuable part of debate , whataboutery labels are just another fairly modern method used to close down debate , whatever the subject matter , you constantly close your ears and just plough on that people are apologist s for stuff they make clear time and time again is beyond apology and they can never condone ??‍♂️

I don’t mean this horribly but please stop using the ??‍♂️ emoji on every post!

[Archied]

55 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I don’t mean this horribly but please stop using the ??‍♂️ emoji on every post!

You just used it ?

[Highgate]

Hopeful signs as Zelensky suggests that Ukraine is willing to stay neutral in future....and is willing to negotiate about the status of both Crimea and Donbass.  Impressive pragmatism on his and his government's part.

Would such an offer be enough to allow Putin to call off the invasion and sell it as a military victory to the Russian media?   There needs to be an escape route that will  allow Putin to protect his fragile ego.   It's good to see that Zelensky seems to realize this.

[BaaLocks]

Interesting suggestion from GCHQ that they have intercepted comms to Putin that lead them to believe he is being misinformed at how the invasion is going. That's going to make negotiations challenging if one side is starting from a false position. 

We all want a quick resolution to this, problem is ensuring we actually resolve it and not just send everyone back home to fester their resentment and build up for a bigger go at it next time around. I know, no perfect solution, and I'm not saying that means we let the conflict go a day longer than it should, but history tells us that so often we are just making bigger problems for tomorrow.

[Norman]

Have Russia sent in their proper army yet or what. 

[Stive Pesley]

On 01/04/2022 at 10:03, BaaLocks said:

Interesting suggestion from GCHQ that they have intercepted comms to Putin that lead them to believe he is being misinformed at how the invasion is going.

I'd not seen that. I guess that's one of the drawbacks of running a dictatorship. When you scare people so much they daren't actually tell you the bad news

[Ram-Alf]

19 hours ago, Norman said:

Have Russia sent in their proper army yet or what. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60946340