The Administration Thread

[BoroWill]

6 minutes ago, Coconut's Beard said:

The power Gibson has is his hold over the EFL. You must be forgetting the part where he threatened to sue them, the EFL proffered us as an alternative and all of a sudden any potential action against the EFL was stayed.

You really think if Gibson was willing to go through the courts he would have kept silent after Morris' challenge? It'd be headed to court already.

The claim started before administration, but realistically administration put an end to any chance he had of getting the money he's claiming for ended at that point. Continuing with the action despite this is proof of his grubby intent.

There is no legal method for Gibson or Middlesbrough to personally pursue Morris over this. Mel Morris knows this and thus his offer is completely vacuous. If Mel Morris would like to indemnify any claim for Derby County then I'd imagine the offer would be accepted instantly.

[BoroWill]

4 minutes ago, David said:

Appreciate the reply, also appreciate you coming on, always good to hear the thoughts from the opposite side.

We have however had a very large number of registration requests from the North East which I have declined given the ongoing situation.

You can usually tell by the timing of joining what the intentions are. 

I hope you can see that I have posted here before and don't have any intention of winding people up. I know this is obviously a very emotive topic so I will do my best to keep the discussion civil.

[hintonsboots]

4 minutes ago, BoroWill said:

. If Mel Morris would like to indemnify any claim for Derby County then I'd imagine the offer would be accepted instantly.

Thanks Steve.

[BoroWill]

5 minutes ago, Indy said:

If we believe the timeline being put forward by Gibson, he started action in January 2019 - is that correct? Because that’s five months before we were found guilty of anything. So what would be the basis of that complaint? And how could DCFC reasonably be expected to respond to an accusation of wrongdoing that was still being adjudicated upon at that point?

Intermediate accounts are published to the EFL part way through a season so that they can forecast to see if teams are going to hit their FFP/P&S limits. Given the EFL is made up of the member clubs I'd assume this makes them available to member clubs at that point.

[Tamworthram]

Just now, BoroWill said:

There is no legal method for Gibson or Middlesbrough to personally pursue Morris over this. Mel Morris knows this and thus his offer is completely vacuous. If Mel Morris would like to indemnify any claim for Derby County then I'd imagine the offer would be accepted instantly.

I’m not so sure it would be accepted instantly. I reckon, apart from losing in arbitration, such an offer from Mel Morris would be Gibson’s worse nightmare as it would make it difficult for him to avoid the case going to court where, I genuinely think he knows he would have little chance of success. I honestly believe he knows his best chance is some kind of out of court settlement that the administrator/new owner would grudgingly agree to in order to allow the club exit administration.

[Jimbo Ram]

28 minutes ago, BoroWill said:

If this is all true, why did he start the action long before you went into administration and were looking to be taken over? Your theory doesn't make any logical sense.

MY theory doesn't make any logical sense........try looking at the Gibbon's claim for that......

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Curtains said:

I feel that people we’re putting too much credence on Boro/ Wycombe moving to sue Mel .

I think Boro/ Wycombe are going to ultimately fail with these claims. 
 

 

So do a lot of us but the point that is of the greatest concern is that from our perspective they need to fail sooner rather than latter. Their very existence has damaged us enough already and they might prevent us pulling off the great escape. But they must not be allowed to damage us further. Resolution needs to be 'imminent;'

I tried to think of an alternative to the last word because for us imminent now seems to be like tomorrow - neither of them ever comes.

[Indy]

1 minute ago, BoroWill said:

Intermediate accounts are published to the EFL part way through a season so that they can forecast to see if teams are going to hit their FFP/P&S limits. Given the EFL is made up of the member clubs I'd assume this makes them available to member clubs at that point.

But this isn’t about intermediate accounts, it’s about if the amortisation ruling went against us. In January 2019, any accounts would’ve used our amortisation process based on live player values - I don’t even know if we submitted these at that time as the method was in dispute. It was only after this point that they decided the notes were insufficient, and then only after accounts were restated that any FFP breach was charged. 
 

So in January 2019, we hadn’t been found to have done anything wrong. 
 

Happy to be corrected if my recollection of this is wrong. It was a while ago!!!

[BoroWill]

3 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

I’m not so sure it would be accepted instantly. I reckon, apart from losing in arbitration, such an offer from Mel Morris would be Gibson’s worse nightmare as it would make it difficult for him to avoid the case going to court where, I genuinely think he knows he would have little chance of success. I honestly believe he knows his best chance is some kind of out of court settlement that the administrator/new owner would grudgingly agree to in order to allow the club exit administration.

He absolutely would take it to court. See here for him taking previously unprecedented cases that we had a low chance of winning to court.

[RoyMac5]

5 minutes ago, BoroWill said:

Intermediate accounts are published to the EFL part way through a season so that they can forecast to see if teams are going to hit their FFP/P&S limits. Given the EFL is made up of the member clubs I'd assume this makes them available to member clubs at that point.

You not worried about Boro's spending then?

 

[RoyMac5]

Just now, BoroWill said:

He absolutely would take it to court. See here for him taking previously unprecedented cases that we had a low chance of winning to court.

Yeah we've seen him try and sue the Church team! We see who he is.

[May Contain Nuts]

19 minutes ago, BoroWill said:

There is no legal method for Gibson or Middlesbrough to personally pursue Morris over this. Mel Morris knows this and thus his offer is completely vacuous. If Mel Morris would like to indemnify any claim for Derby County then I'd imagine the offer would be accepted instantly.

Yes, we all know that statement wasn't yet a firm offer to indemnify the claims, and more a PR exercise to draw out the EFL & Gibson's true intentions.

He could legally indemnify the claims against DCFC though, it appears, if the Boro vs Derby case is taken to the courts. He could indemnify the claims if it's taken to the EFL Arbitration (but would rather not use that rather dubious method... which OK is quite ironic).

Gibson could have said OK, we'll take MFC vs DCFC to the courts instead of arbitration as long as you put that in writing.

The EFL said this would be OK... but now they've doubled up on themselves and said hold on, no we won't allow it! It's arbitration or nothing! Again I wonder why?

Edited February 8, 2022 by Coconut's Beard

[BoroWill]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

You not worried about Boro's spending then?

 

I think Steve Gibson would have to be the stupidest person in the world to allow us to fail FFP whilst pursuing a claim against a team for failing FFP. No, I'm not worried.

[BoroWill]

4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yeah we've seen him try and sue the Church team! We see who he is.

Not protecting your trademark is a really good way of losing your trademark. 

[Ram-Alf]

5 minutes ago, Coconut's Beard said:

Gibson could have said OK, we'll take MFC vs DCFC to the courts instead of arbitration as long as you put that in writing.

The EFL said this would be OK... but now they've doubled up on themselves and said hold on, no we won't allow it! Again I wonder why?

Because they fear they would

[Foreveram]

26 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

Maybe you should look at yourselves, You lost 6 games on the bounce from early March to early April, You spent more money than we did, We beat you to Martyn Waghorn, Your owner sold/transfered one of his businesses debt to another of his businesses, You employed Tony Pulis, You have NO! legal case against us, You may be 99.9% sure your owner isn't trying to destroy DCFC on his own, But with the help of the EFL he'll get his wish, When Gibson sent a letter threatening to sue them, But if the EFL will go after DCFC then we'll drop our claim against the EFL.

Ask your owner why he'll not go to the High Court to settle this case if he believes he's in the right...No i'll answer that, Because he'll lose, WW claims are more rediculous than yours.

I await your logical answers...if you have any.

 

The, you employed Tony Pullis one could be tricky.

[PistoldPete]

10 minutes ago, BoroWill said:

He absolutely would take it to court. See here for him taking previously unprecedented cases that we had a low chance of winning to court.

Yes you had a contract with Ziege and with Liverpool. What contract is there between Derby and Boro? What is he suing us for? And why isn’t he suing Morris? 

[Ram-Alf]

7 minutes ago, BoroWill said:

I think Steve Gibson would have to be the stupidest person in the world

You've read some of his statements then regarding DCFC/MM

[ilkleyram]

38 minutes ago, BoroWill said:

Thanks for the reply, I'm really not here to have a slanging match or an argument. I've been following this thread for a while and just wanted to log back in to try and give a bit of our side, which I hope I can do.

1) No, despite the clearly inflated price the stadium was sold for this was deemed to be within the rules by the EFL even after appeals. If we have an issue with that aspect we should be pursuing the EFL.

2) See above.

3) I think the EFL have handled the situation terribly since the start (and I mean the end of the 18/19 season when they had access to your accounts that have since been found to be against the rules). As for why Boro/Gibson dropped any action against the EFL, I believe the prospective case was about them not enforcing their own rules properly. By giving you a fine and points deduction that would make our case pointless as at that point they have enforced their rules.

I think the dislike towards your club/fans (which I don't share) stems from a few things. Since 18/19 a number of your fans on social media revelled in the fact that Mel Morris had the whole league "on strings" and could do whatever he pleased, when Gibson originally raised his concerns over your spending these same people aimed abuse and mockery at him. As I'm sure you're aware, Steve Gibson is extremely well liked by Middlesbrough fans, so seeing him take abuse for pointing out that someone was cheating definitely got a lot of our fans backs up. Seeing him now being portrayed as the villain by many who also drank Mel's kool-aid is pretty irksome too I'd imagine, he told you that you were cheating, he told you that Mel was a liar, and now he has been proven correct he still gets abuse.

@BoroWill- the reason your owner is seen as the villain of the piece is because he is.  Not because of his views of Mel Morris and not because of his previous views and comments of our club's profligate spending - you will find many/most Rams fans (no doubt some late to the party) who agree with him on both counts - but because he is and has been for many months deliberately making it impossible for us to move to new ownership without us slugging him a considerable amount of money (anything between £7m and £45m) for a perceived competitive gain, when even your own fans believe that your failure to gain a play off place that season was largely down to Pulis and a sporting/player/results failure on your part.

We have been roundly punished by the EFL's processes for our financial splurge; we have spent the vast majority of the last 3/4 seasons under a transfer embargo; we've had 9 players leave this transfer window alone, most against their will; we're down to the bare bones from a squad perspective; we're likely to get relegated despite the fantastic effort that the players are putting in to avoid that happening.  Is not all that and more, punishment enough?

Yet, for your owner, this is personal.  He doesn't care that the club, our club, is suffering, that good people are out of work, that a fan base is suffering. The proof of that is that he is continuing with a claim that is at its very, very best, purely speculative.  If he relaxed his claim we could, probably, get new owners in place, sort out creditors, be relegated and under EFL control for two more years but at least move on.  He won't let us because he doesn't like Mel Morris and wants to see Mel Morris suffer. And that is it pure and simple, and that is why he is, whatever your protestations to the contrary, the villain of this piece.  It's time for him to show some leadership, move on and concentrate on his own club.

Edited February 8, 2022 by ilkleyram
comma

[scout's dad]

As I previously mentioned both claims are about different times for when points deduction should have been implemented. Will it come to a time when MFC and WWFC think about suing each other if either one is successful with their respective claim?