The Administration Thread

[RipleyRich]

9 hours ago, Mihangel said:

Nah, Mike Ashley, if you're reading this, we don't want you....

Obv he won't be, but I'd rather we go defunct and start again than have that CJTC own us.

Ludicrous statement IMO.

You would rather the Club cease to exist, than a man with a proven business success history, including that of an English Football Club, take over?

 

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, CBX1985 said:

Thank you for the welcome.  I don't take it as critical at all ?

I try not to deal in things I don't know.     I have no idea of who paid what to who etc.  Nor do you.  Reports in The Sun are not reliable - "my source has told me" does not make it true. Other reports contradict.  

My Bale/Messi comment is a rhetorical way of pointing out that CK feels a little too good to be true.  Not saying he is.  Would jump for joy if he isn't.   

While you try not to deal in things you don't know, you know that I have no idea who paid what to who - how do you know that?

Some reports in the Sun are untrue but most are not. Otherwise they would be paying out damages at such a rate that they would have been liquidated long ago. I am of an age where I recall the first edition of the Sun and most of my life I have treated it with caution and I wouldn’t spend money to read it.

On this thread, the utterances of Alan Nixon are scrutinised and dissected daily to determine the authenticity of what he says. The judgements handed down by the forum vary as to the particular comments he makes from one day to another. However there is a broad consensus on here that he has well placed informants , particularly in the EFL. Nixon regularly provides us with what is being discussed in those corridors at 3.00pm which are usually found to be reflected accurately in the 6.00pm official releases from the EFL. He is usually a reliable barometer in that respect. When he isn’t certain he resorts to giving out cryptic messages which is annoying when he would be better off saying nothing.

This weekend he has been letting us know he has been doing a lot to find out the real state of play. A couple of weeks ago he moved from being cautious about Kirchner to supportive of him and he seems to be maintaining that stance. We’ll all know if he is right very soon.

 

 

 

[CornwallRam]

10 minutes ago, CBX1985 said:

My point regards liquidation and the threat thereof. DCFC brand has considerable value as a football club; it has no value if it is not a football club (and has been liquidated).  Going to division 14, no one is going to pay for that brand in that league.

Players have no value if they can leave on liquidation. 

 

On liquidation, the players registrations are transferred to the EFL, who then sell them on to ensure that all footballing debts are repaid.

So, it is not quite true that they have zero value.

It's also possible that the administrators could decide to liquidate, sell the remaining players for whatever they can get, and liquidate afterwards. That way, the value would have been converted to cash and that cash would be an asset. 

I still think that our big problem is not actually the size of our debt, it's that most of it isn't to unsecured creditors, so administration has done very little to reduce the debt...that and the ground not being included. 

[kevinhectoring]

20 minutes ago, CBX1985 said:

Thank you for the welcome.  I don't take it as critical at all ?

I try not to deal in things I don't know.     I have no idea of who paid what to who etc.  Nor do you.  Reports in The Sun are not reliable - "my source has told me" does not make it true. Other reports contradict.  

My Bale/Messi comment is a rhetorical way of pointing out that CK feels a little too good to be true.  Not saying he is.  Would jump for joy if he isn't.   

Agree - it’s far from clear who paid the May payroll. But what Nixon doesn’t recognise is that the funding probably involved a loan to q - ie a a high ranking claim in a liquidation (and MSD would most likely have supported the funding)

I think you’re unduly pessimistic in saying ck is/was paying too much - and I still think he might succeed. His offer (for the club only, with MM sharing some pain on the stadium and ?Clowes willing to share the risk/reward) is/was not crazy at all. MSD may well have agreed with him to write off some interest and I’d guess Q’s fee (under the ck deal) is set in stone despite the ongoing ‘work’. It’s all about potential and rightly or wrongly it seems ck’s assessment is that Rooney, Stretford and Cook can turn the football ship round. Valuing football clubs is an art not a science
 

Agree though that Ashley won’t match the ck deal. But that’s not because ck’s deal was foolish. It’s because Ashley only buys in the bargain basement 

 

[OUTSIDER]

so CK says the money in another account waiting on clearence ?

 

[RipleyRich]

Apologies if this has previously been shared. This thread is moving so fast now, it`s hard to keep up!

 

And, Sky Sports reporter Rob Dorsett has given an update on that, as he shared the latest on all of those in the frame.

“Kirchner still adamant he wants to buy, money in European clearing bank, and he’s staying in UK to complete deal. Steve Morgan no longer interested, Andy Appleby trying to refinance a renewed bid, and Ashley feels he’s being frozen out, but has the cash to buy.

 

“I’m told 2 other unnamed parties also want to buy club. Price for #dcfc now risen to over £30m because of interest payments, plus £22m for stadium. £50m+ would buy most Championship clubs, but Derby in Lg 1 still v attractive because of fan base and commercial potential.”

Edited June 12, 2022 by RipleyRich

[PistoldPete]

3 hours ago, Brailsford Ram said:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/18857684/derby-chris-kirchner-mike-ashley-takeover-loan-money/
 

On the basis that Kirchner funded the May payroll according to Nixon I am still hopeful that CK will complete the takeover this week.

This whole process has been utterly chaotic and I blame Q for that. If the article is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt it, why couldn’t Q hold their nerve for just a few more days to give the opportunity for the transfer to close. They’ve never seemed to be in a hurry previously.

if this is right Q have pocketed 1.6m pounds from him and then invited other parties back in before the funds, including the admin fees arrive. If CK completes this it will be no thanks to Q.

Brailsford it seems as though EFL is pressurising and threatening that we could be thrown out of the League if we don't get a confirmed buyer before fixtures come out.  Nixon has also said that Q discussed the stance regarding the loss of exclusivity and he is OK with that.. he hasn't pulled out yet and is still in pole position if the money does come through.

My beef with Q is that (not for the first time) they didn't manage expectations and this time didn't anticipate issues with money laundering checks in advance. Some of the criticism of Q in the media is riduculous though, stoked up by Ashley and the EFL no doubt.  

I had pretty much given up on CK but it does seem now that he is staying in the UK to try and sort things out , his response to the BBC reporter had seemed rather alarming.  

[Tamworthram]

10 hours ago, Half Fan Half Biscuit said:

Getting fed up of reading and hearing that Ashley is waiting in the wings like some wannabe saviour of DCFC. If he’s really serious he needs to get centre stage with a decent bid (better than CK) on Monday. 

Perhaps he has made what he considers to be a decent bid for a league 1 team and I don’t see him bettering CK’s offer. As @CBX1985 so excellently explains, when in administration with the threat of liquidation, people (sadly for the creditors) may have to make a bigger sacrifice than they would really like to. It’s a sad state of affairs but MA is under no obligation to buy the club and will have in his own mind the maximum he is prepared to go to. He only wants to own Derby County at what he considers to be the right price - hopefully enough to avoid any more points deductions.

[CBX1985]

10 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

On liquidation, the players registrations are transferred to the EFL, who then sell them on to ensure that all footballing debts are repaid.

So, it is not quite true that they have zero value.

It's also possible that the administrators could decide to liquidate, sell the remaining players for whatever they can get, and liquidate afterwards. That way, the value would have been converted to cash and that cash would be an asset. 

I still think that our big problem is not actually the size of our debt, it's that most of it isn't to unsecured creditors, so administration has done very little to reduce the debt...that and the ground not being included. 

I was unaware of the registration point so thank you for that ?  I will look up the details later, as might be employment rights issues there - i.e. who is paying their wages on transfer of transfer of registration and they have a legal right to earn a living.  Bury players gave two weeks notice.

The decide to liquidate point sounds impractical.  The fact they are liquidating would mean the likelihood would be they could be obtained for free later.  Might get something from someone in a hurry, but other teams will be as brutal negotiating as Mike Ashley. 

[RoyMac5]

3 hours ago, Brailsford Ram said:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/18857684/derby-chris-kirchner-mike-ashley-takeover-loan-money/
 

On the basis that Kirchner funded the May payroll according to Nixon I am still hopeful that CK will complete the takeover this week.

This whole process has been utterly chaotic and I blame Q for that. If the article is accurate, and I have no reason to doubt it, why couldn’t Q hold their nerve for just a few more days to give the opportunity for the transfer to close. They’ve never seemed to be in a hurry previously.

if this is right Q have pocketed 1.6m pounds from him and then invited other parties back in before the funds, including the admin fees arrive. If CK completes this it will be no thanks to Q.

There is nothing new in that Sun article, just a rehash of what we already know, this time using the Talksport Curtis Davies piece.

If CK funded part of Mays budget - which is what Nixon previously suggested on one of his tweets. A 'top up' he said.

As for chaotic well CK has added to that nicely, more than once!

[Loughborough Ram]

My big concern is that because of the way that Quantuma are dealing with this, and the way that all sides seem to be manipulating the media, whoever eventually becomes our owner will walk into a situation where half of the supporter base will be against them.

You only have to look on this forum to look how entrenched the different sides are. Ashley and Kirchner have almost been cast as good against evil, where neither is actually the case.

We need to accept that, quantuma apart, all sides are good and whichever ownership group take over, they have saved our club.

Don't turn this into Brexit 2

[Woodley Ram]

12 hours ago, Carnero said:

https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/anti-money-laundering/quick-guide-to-the-mlrs

Beefed up anti-money laundering regulations came into force in 2017.

You are right. However not sure why they have sent the money via Europe or why it has been held up for so long. AMD 5 & 6 shouldn’t have made a difference to this transaction 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, CBX1985 said:

Hello everyone.  Nice to meet you all.  Found this forum a week or so ago, and in the circumstances have been reading frequently.

I do believe there is, perhaps understandably, a mismatch between business reality and fans wanting to "save our club".  Some of the business people involved also care deeply about football, and some this club; but business comes first and their backers are not going to want to "donate" monies beyond the relative value of the proposition.  

I work in financial services and investment.  I have previously worked at a global accountancy firm, where I for a while sat next to a company administrator - no, not Q - so have some familiarity with how these processes work in general terms. 

My analysis: is DCFC has VERY large debts.  DCFC has virtually no tangible assets.  Those we do have are players (if very few!).  On liquidation, unlike with other firms in most normal industries, those assets can leave for free on liquidation - so valueless to a liquidator.  We have considerable brand value (30k matchday attendees), all those here etc etc.  That brand value dies on liquidation, if EFL does not allow re-entry at L2.  Unlike with most businesses, the name cannot simply be sold as a way to pay creditors.

There is an old maxim: if I owe the bank £10,000, I have a problem; If I owe the bank a £1billion, the bank has a problem. That applies here.  On liquidation, the creditors get nothing.  Think about it, the players have no value and we don't own the ground.  We are left with paying £100m or whatever it is from old replica kits from the Superstore.

Ashley knows this, too.  As do all the buyers.  The reality is someone needs to be screwed here.  Liquidation screws everyone, but the admins need to extract as much as they can.  And so along strides a wonderful American who will generously pay a nice amount to said creditors for a L1 club.  No points deduction.  Keep Rooney.  40 new players.  He might as well throw Bale in to the mix as well, and consider putting a bit in for Messi.  It feels - not saying it is - a little too good to be true.  He is offering to be the one financially screwed for the greater good of everyone else.  And on cue the money doesn't turn up... makes you wonder.

What, in my opinion, this club has needed since January is to have the real crunch liquidation point - the club will liquidate on x date without x monies.  At the moment, creditors are thinking "I can get a 'good' deal from some naive mug" and are not considering the real haircut they are going to need to take to get some monies back, maybe 5 or 10p in the pound.  Once a potential vulture owner decides to accept the points deduction, why offer the creditors any less than a completely derisory offer (you get them to their lowest point before they refuse on principle)?  The points deduction will be the same.

This is Ashley's strategy (and probably everyone else bar CK).  He is planning to screw the creditors.  But this only works if you are prepared to hold out to the very very very last minute; and you can act fast to prevent the reapers axe actually coming down. 

The idea he will take CK's terms like-for-like is for the birds.      

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

A very long post and a few things wrong.. I think the creditors do get something on liqudation from the players registrations as EFL sell the players to pay football creditors. Also not every buyer will think like Ashley especially local buyers like Clowes or others who may also be Rams fans.

[RipleyRich]

1 minute ago, Tamworthram said:

Perhaps he has made what he considers to be a decent bid for a league 1 team and I don’t see him bettering CK’s offer. As @CBX1985 so excellently explains, when in administration with the threat of liquidation, people (sadly for the creditors) may have to make a bigger sacrifice than they would really like to. It’s a sad state of affairs but MA is under no obligation to buy the club and will have in his own mind the maximum he is prepared to go to. He only wants to own Derby County at what he considers to be the right price - hopefully enough to avoid any more points deductions.

I think the biggest barrier to MA`s "offer" is HMRC. I don`t see them accepting the settlement he is likely to offer.

Infact, I don`t believe under CK`s bid they are taking 35% over 3 years. The numbers don`t stack up for me within the £21.4m he`s said to have agreed. Where is all that going? I`m thinking they are getting a good up front lump and then further payments over 3 years.

I know I am probably going to get insults again for mentioning HMRC again, but aside from potentially MM, they are the biggest creditor, have a preferential status and have the major vote.

[I am Ram]

1 hour ago, CBX1985 said:

Hello everyone.  Nice to meet you all.  Found this forum a week or so ago, and in the circumstances have been reading frequently.

I do believe there is, perhaps understandably, a mismatch between business reality and fans wanting to "save our club".  Some of the business people involved also care deeply about football, and some this club; but business comes first and their backers are not going to want to "donate" monies beyond the relative value of the proposition.  

I work in financial services and investment.  I have previously worked at a global accountancy firm, where I for a while sat next to a company administrator - no, not Q - so have some familiarity with how these processes work in general terms. 

My analysis: is DCFC has VERY large debts.  DCFC has virtually no tangible assets.  Those we do have are players (if very few!).  On liquidation, unlike with other firms in most normal industries, those assets can leave for free on liquidation - so valueless to a liquidator.  We have considerable brand value (30k matchday attendees), all those here etc etc.  That brand value dies on liquidation, if EFL does not allow re-entry at L2.  Unlike with most businesses, the name cannot simply be sold as a way to pay creditors.

There is an old maxim: if I owe the bank £10,000, I have a problem; If I owe the bank a £1billion, the bank has a problem. That applies here.  On liquidation, the creditors get nothing.  Think about it, the players have no value and we don't own the ground.  We are left with paying £100m or whatever it is from old replica kits from the Superstore.

Ashley knows this, too.  As do all the buyers.  The reality is someone needs to be screwed here.  Liquidation screws everyone, but the admins need to extract as much as they can.  And so along strides a wonderful American who will generously pay a nice amount to said creditors for a L1 club.  No points deduction.  Keep Rooney.  40 new players.  He might as well throw Bale in to the mix as well, and consider putting a bit in for Messi.  It feels - not saying it is - a little too good to be true.  He is offering to be the one financially screwed for the greater good of everyone else.  And on cue the money doesn't turn up... makes you wonder.

What, in my opinion, this club has needed since January is to have the real crunch liquidation point - the club will liquidate on x date without x monies.  At the moment, creditors are thinking "I can get a 'good' deal from some naive mug" and are not considering the real haircut they are going to need to take to get some monies back, maybe 5 or 10p in the pound.  Once a potential vulture owner decides to accept the points deduction, why offer the creditors any less than a completely derisory offer (you get them to their lowest point before they refuse on principle)?  The points deduction will be the same.

This is Ashley's strategy (and probably everyone else bar CK).  He is planning to screw the creditors.  But this only works if you are prepared to hold out to the very very very last minute; and you can act fast to prevent the reapers axe actually coming down. 

The idea he will take CK's terms like-for-like is for the birds.      

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

Hi, welcome to the forum, in the financial investment world i see, are you currently on a bank holiday ?

[Carnero]

4 minutes ago, Woodley Ram said:

You are right. However not sure why they have sent the money via Europe or why it has been held up for so long. AMD 5 & 6 shouldn’t have made a difference to this transaction 

https://www.keycurrency.co.uk/swift-transfer/

An intermediary bank would be used where there is no direct relationship between the sending bank and receiving bank.

As for why the AML checks are taking so long I can only assume that it is due to the origin of funds being mainly from cryptocurrency.

Nixon says the money was "re-sent" last Monday (6th). So 1-4 working days plus additional AML checks could easily see it clear next week and the Kirchner deal completed.

[angieram]

6 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

There is nothing new in that Sun article, just a rehash of what we already know, this time using the Talksport Curtis Davies piece.

If CK funded part of Mays budget - which is what Nixon previously suggested on one of his tweets. A 'top up' he said.

As for chaotic well CK has added to that nicely, more than once!

Not true, that article doesn't even mention Talksport! 

 

[RoyMac5]

15 minutes ago, RipleyRich said:

I think the biggest barrier to MA`s "offer" is HMRC. I don`t see them accepting the settlement he is likely to offer.

Infact, I don`t believe under CK`s bid they are taking 35% over 3 years. The numbers don`t stack up for me within the £21.4m he`s said to have agreed. Where is all that going? I`m thinking they are getting a good up front lump and then further payments over 3 years.

I know I am probably going to get insults again for mentioning HMRC again, but aside from potentially MM, they are the biggest creditor, have a preferential status and have the major vote.

Except of course they know MA of old! The might wonder if CK will keep up payments.

[RoyMac5]

16 minutes ago, angieram said:

Not true, that article doesn't even mention Talksport! 

 

It mentions quotes from Davies that are taken from his Talksport piece - there are videos of it doing the rounds.

Edit: that article is not the one I read first thing - I must be quoting the wrong one.

Sorry this one:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/18854952/derby-administration-kirchner-rooney-concern/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/18857684/derby-chris-kirchner-mike-ashley-takeover-loan-money/

The other article (above) in the quote is the one about CKs 'quick loan' - which according to Nixon is £1.6m whio had previously said CK just topped up the kitty for May as there was already money there with Q.

Edited June 12, 2022 by RoyMac5

[angieram]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

It mentions quotes from Davies that are taken from his Talksport piece - there are videos of it doing the rounds.

You were quoting the wrong article.

That's another article.