Discriminatory abuse

[Archied]

9 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

To be fair , I have known a few Millwall fans and I can’t find any exceptions to the rule that they are vile. Plus Millwall are managed  by rattlesnake Rowett. Mason Bennett didn’t exactly endear himself either. But I get your drift.

Suppose it all depends on your experience, I know a few Millwall fans and the ones I know are 100% decent people though I don’t take that to mean they are all decent ??‍♂️

[Archied]

18 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Because it deflects from and obscures the original issue. I've seen exactly the same kind of defences and counter-accusations all over social media, not one expressing any concern that a player may have been racially abused. It's absolutely classic trolling. 

I would say it’s more people generalising that deflects from and obscures , how do we stand a chance of fighting back against and stamping out this garbage if we are not honest and also look at ourselves ??‍♂️, saying it’s Millwall takes us nowhere , we could close down Millwall as a club and nothing would change

Edited November 8, 2021 by Archied

[Foreveram]

Our fans on Saturday were so loud for 90 minutes I didn’t hear anything that Millwall fans said.

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

Because it deflects from and obscures the original issue. I've seen exactly the same kind of defences and counter-accusations all over social media, not one expressing any concern that a player may have been racially abused. It's absolutely classic trolling. 

In what way does it deflect from anything? Isn't highlighting the point that people are annoyed with fans of all clubs behaving like knobs?

Racially abused? What is your source for this? I've not seen racism mentioned in any of the official statements.

[Crewton]

38 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

In what way does it deflect from anything? Isn't highlighting the point that people are annoyed with fans of all clubs behaving like knobs?

Racially abused? What is your source for this? I've not seen racism mentioned in any of the official statements.

The first 8 posts on the thread are about the 'incident' on Saturday. The vast majority of the rest are about our fans behaviour and similar societal issues, so in my view it has deflected from that specific incident. 

As far as the suggestion that it was racial abuse, given the location it happened, I'm content to use Occam's Razor to determine the most likely answer. And to be frank, I really don't care if that is discriminatory to Millwall fans because they are in denial about it as usual anyway.

[G STAR RAM]

14 minutes ago, Crewton said:

The first 8 posts on the thread are about the 'incident' on Saturday. The vast majority of the rest are about our fans behaviour and similar societal issues, so in my view it has deflected from that specific incident. 

As far as the suggestion that it was racial abuse, given the location it happened, I'm content to use Occam's Razor to determine the most likely answer. And to be frank, I really don't care if that is discriminatory to Millwall fans because they are in denial about it as usual anyway.

And therein lies the crux of the matter, some people have guessed  at what has happened and appointed themselves judge, jury and executioner without any facts whatsoever.

IF any wrongdoing is found (and it is as your guess) racism, then it becomes a police matter. Doesn't the fact that Millwall have involved the police show that they are not a vile little club?

 

[angieram]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

The first 8 posts on the thread are about the 'incident' on Saturday. The vast majority of the rest are about our fans behaviour and similar societal issues, so in my view it has deflected from that specific incident. 

As far as the suggestion that it was racial abuse, given the location it happened, I'm content to use Occam's Razor to determine the most likely answer. And to be frank, I really don't care if that is discriminatory to Millwall fans because they are in denial about it as usual anyway.

To be fair, there was a big debate about the Millwall incident at the beginning of the thread that had to be removed because it broke the terms of use.

This left the posts that focussed on the wider discussion.

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

And therein lies the crux of the matter, some people have guessed  at what has happened and appointed themselves judge, jury and executioner without any facts whatsoever.

IF any wrongdoing is found (and it is as your guess) racism, then it becomes a police matter. Doesn't the fact that Millwall have involved the police show that they are not a vile little club?

 

I haven't personally used those words in respect of Millwall. In fact I think it was only one poster who did (unless others were removed by Mods), though others have stated that they weren't surprised, given past incidents (some of them very recent), and neither am I. Leopards don't change their spots.

[VulcanRam]

Millwall as a club do as much as any, if not more, to deter racial or discriminatory behaviour. Their Community arm does some fantastic work in some of the poorest parts of London.

Until society changes and education get through to people, these incidents will continue at grounds all over the country and on social media.

The club can ID and ban those found responsible of racism or discrimination, but beyond that have little control over what is shouted or chanted by supporters once they are in the ground, other than perhaps tannoy announcements if the chants are loud enough. 

If someone has shouted something at a player and it's been reported, our only hope is that it's dealt with by the police and club appropriately and other get the message. 

[VulcanRam]

Just now, VulcanRam said:

Millwall as a club do as much as any, if not more, to deter racial or discriminatory behaviour. Their Community arm does some fantastic work in some of the poorest parts of London.

Until society changes and education get through to people, these incidents will continue at grounds all over the country and on social media.

The club can ID and ban those found responsible of racism or discrimination, but beyond that have little control over what is shouted or chanted by supporters once they are in the ground, other than perhaps tannoy announcements if the chants are loud enough. 

If someone has shouted something at a player and it's been reported, our only hope is that it's dealt with by the police and club appropriately, and others get the message. 

 

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I haven't personally used those words in respect of Millwall. In fact I think it was only one poster who did (unless others were removed by Mods), though others have stated that they weren't surprised, given past incidents (some of them very recent), and neither am I. Leopards don't change their spots.

 Can't say I keep much of a tabs on the Millwall fans behaviour, I know they were bad back in the 80s and 90s, are they any worse than other clubs these days?

I can only go on my personal experiences and think a sizeable number of our away following are as poorly behaved as anything I've personally witnessed in the past.

 

[Crewton]

15 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

 Can't say I keep much of a tabs on the Millwall fans behaviour, I know they were bad back in the 80s and 90s, are they any worse than other clubs these days?

I can only go on my personal experiences and think a sizeable number of our away following are as poorly behaved as anything I've personally witnessed in the past.

 

I know the club do allot of work in the community and have tried hard to shake off their image and those supporters who let them down. It's often claimed that the troublemakers "aren't regular fans" who only turn out for big games and grudge matches, and there is an element of truth to that, but the list of incidents at ordinary league matches inside the Den just in the last 10 years is a long one and the club's response on the day has often been lackadaisical - the bloke who jumped out of the stand, ran at Nigel Clough a few years ago (the 5-1 win?) and made it all the way to the stand on the other side of the pitch and made his getaway without a single Steward stopping him is a good example. The whole response to the BLM issue is another one. Racist slurs shouted at Marvin Sordell, Heung Son-Min and Everton players a couple of seasons ago, their behaviour at the 2017 play-off game against Bradford.........and so on and so on and so on.....

"Not all....." is no defence when it's such a common occurrence.

[Ambitious]

I had a quick look on the Millwall forum and it begins with the majority mocking the incident, suggesting it's all made up to make their club a punching bag until... 

Quote

My son heard it and unfortunately it was a bit more than that. Won’t comment on here on what it was exactly but all I can say is if the fella who did it gets caught he can have no complaints if he gets a ban, in the current climate. Moronic really.

Still, they sound more annoyed that people have highlighted the issue rather than the issue itself. 

[sage]

Sadly it's not just the Millwall fans in denial 

[LazloW]

Why does every discussion about other clubs’, or their fans’, behaviour always turn into some form of self flagellation about the behaviour of our club’s, or our fan’s, behaviour.

Sort of reverse whataboutism where we can’t wait to find some other way to criticise ourselves.

In this case it’s particularly daft:

”There was an incident at Millwall where one of our players was abused”

”That’s terrible; assuming it’s a Millwall fan, we should be rightly critical of both the fan and club for making/allowing such things to happen”

”Whoa, hold on a minute, Derby fans have done and said some pretty bad things in the past, and the club has been very naughty lately, so it wouldn’t be right to criticise… We don’t want to be hypocritical”.

”You what? Should we not highlight and criticise any form of abuse, in any form, whoever made it and not be so f’ing precious about every utterance that is expressed in this forum just in case somebody might shine a light on our own failings?”

”No. We are Derby fans and thus must only ever be critical of Derby County”

Edited November 8, 2021 by LazloW

[Archied]

7 minutes ago, LazloW said:

Why does every discussion about other clubs’, or their fans’, behaviour always turn into some form of self flagellation about the behaviour of our club’s, or our fan’s, behaviour.

Sort of reverse whataboutism where we can’t wait to find some other way to criticise ourselves.

In this case it’s particularly daft:

”There was an incident at Millwall where one of our players was abused”

”That’s terrible; assuming it’s a Millwall fan, we should be rightly critical of both the fan and club for making/allowing such things to happen”

”Whoa, hold on a minute, Derby fans have done and said some pretty bad things in the past, and the club has been very naughty lately, so it wouldn’t be right to criticise… We don’t want to be hypocritical”.

”You what? Should we not highlight and criticise any form of abuse, in any form, whoever made it and not be so f’ing precious about every utterance that is expressed in this forum just in case somebody might shine a light on our own failings?”

”No. We are Derby fans and thus must only ever be critical of Derby County”

Suppose the question is ,, when an element of Derby fans do this stuff and behave like scum does that make someone like angieram scum or others who are on the verge of not attending games because of it ? To have any chance of fighting this problem ,and yes there is a problem which I honestly think is getting worse again , we have to target and punish those responsible not just fire a scattergun, that’s just lazy and non effective or counter productive 

[LazloW]

8 minutes ago, Archied said:

Suppose the question is ,, when an element of Derby fans do this stuff and behave like scum does that make someone like angieram scum or others who are on the verge of not attending games because of it ? To have any chance of fighting this problem ,and yes there is a problem which I honestly think is getting worse again , we have to target and punish those responsible not just fire a scattergun, that’s just lazy and non effective or counter productive 

I might be be being a bit dim, but not sure how your comment relates to mine.

However, nowhere am I suggesting people shouldn’t be targeted and punished. Indeed, if anything, I’m saying that’s exactly what we should do; what we shouldn’t be doing is shying away - or be somehow prohibited - from criticising other clubs because we have our own idiots. 

[G STAR RAM]

29 minutes ago, LazloW said:

Why does every discussion about other clubs’, or their fans’, behaviour always turn into some form of self flagellation about the behaviour of our club’s, or our fan’s, behaviour.

Sort of reverse whataboutism where we can’t wait to find some other way to criticise ourselves.

In this case it’s particularly daft:

”There was an incident at Millwall where one of our players was abused”

”That’s terrible; assuming it’s a Millwall fan, we should be rightly critical of both the fan and club for making/allowing such things to happen”

”Whoa, hold on a minute, Derby fans have done and said some pretty bad things in the past, and the club has been very naughty lately, so it wouldn’t be right to criticise… We don’t want to be hypocritical”.

”You what? Should we not highlight and criticise any form of abuse, in any form, whoever made it and not be so f’ing precious about every utterance that is expressed in this forum just in case somebody might shine a light on our own failings?”

”No. We are Derby fans and thus must only ever be critical of Derby County”

Its more the referring to clubs and their fans as vile that I dont like. 

I wouldn't want to be classed as vile because someone else from the club that I support is labelling someone a sex offender etc

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, sage said:

Sadly it's not just the Millwall fans in denial 

I've not seen anyone deny anything on this thread?

There aren't even any details out there to deny are there?

[G STAR RAM]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

I know the club do allot of work in the community and have tried hard to shake off their image and those supporters who let them down. It's often claimed that the troublemakers "aren't regular fans" who only turn out for big games and grudge matches, and there is an element of truth to that, but the list of incidents at ordinary league matches inside the Den just in the last 10 years is a long one and the club's response on the day has often been lackadaisical - the bloke who jumped out of the stand, ran at Nigel Clough a few years ago (the 5-1 win?) and made it all the way to the stand on the other side of the pitch and made his getaway without a single Steward stopping him is a good example. The whole response to the BLM issue is another one. Racist slurs shouted at Marvin Sordell, Heung Son-Min and Everton players a couple of seasons ago, their behaviour at the 2017 play-off game against Bradford.........and so on and so on and so on.....

"Not all....." is no defence when it's such a common occurrence.

Didnt we have a fan run on and confront a Forest player?

Someone who went to the matches from our local was banned for racism.

People in glass houses and all that. 

Call the guy out and ban him from football grounds, prosecute him if its an offence worthy of prosecution.

Label their whole club and fans vile? No, not for me I'm afraid.