The coronabrexit thread. I mean, coronavirus thread

[Andrew3000]

7 hours ago, Eddie said:

This government have a history of cherry-picking, and then applying a 'too little, too late' solution. It's what populist, right-wing governments do. I don't doubt that there are a proportion of the general public who are very eager to apply the 'this doesn't really apply to me' school of thought too. Less than two weeks ago, a prominent 'dissenter' within this thread said "Right, that's it - I'm never wearing a mask again." - I wonder how that's working out? As far as the press are concerned, they will always take a doomsday approach because sensational headlines entice people to buy or to click. 

I don't really understand the points you are making in your second and third paragraphs other than you are suggesting (as others have done) that it's all a big conspiracy. Can you please offer citations and sources, especially with respect to the 'academic papers suddenly pulled'?

Conspiracies do exist of course. I have no conspiracy theory, wild or otherwise, as I don't know what motives are at play.  But there is much to suggest that some of these conflict with sensible public health policy.

I'll post a few things over time in relation to my 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. For a start, listen to Peter Mcullough on the dark horse podcast about his paper on vaccine safety. Of course if you look him up he has been attacked and many may think discredited. I'm open to whether he's credible or not, but have a listen see what you think. Dr John Campbell a mainstream medic and not really a dissenting voice has been a victim of fact checkers who he feels are not credible. I'll see if I can find the link.

I'm just wanting more debate. Hart group are interesting.

[Andrew3000]

https://www.hartgroup.org/why-do-they-hide-what-happens-in-the-first-two-weeks-after-vaccination/

 

[G STAR RAM]

2 hours ago, Eddie said:

How's about 'follow the science as we understand it at the time'?

As knowledge and understanding increases, then it's perfectly reasonable for recommendations to change. Science strives to be an exact science, but when new phenomena come along, there is often a degree of 'fuzziness'. Until full understanding is achieved, science is an iterative process.

Yes I agree with that.

Its why we should make sure that science from across the spectrum is listened to, as opposed to labelling anyone that does not agree with the official narrative as conspirscy theorist, anti lockdown/mask/vaxxer etc

[Andrew3000]

1 hour ago, Andrew3000 said:

Dr John Campbell a mainstream medic and not really a dissenting voice has been a victim of fact checkers who he feels are not credible. I'll see if I can find the link.

 

Correction: he's a retired A & E staff nurse. I fact-checked meself! But am I qualified?....

[Archied]

8 hours ago, Eddie said:

Well, let's hope that you never have cause to go to the doctor's, catch a bus, get a taxi then.

I'm actually genuinely intrigued as to why you have what amounts to a phobia about wearing masks. I'm also interested as to what you would do if you felt ill. Would you just carry on regardless, assuming that it was just 'a bit of a cold' or would you self-test before making any decision that could be to the potential benefit or harm of others.

Here’s what interest me , you are so pro mask wearing in indoors setting that you wear one when not mandated by government and pilloried anyone not follow your choice yet by your own admission you have been happy to walk into a pub wearing a mask but sit drinking without it ( pure theatre ) 

seems it’s ok to follow rules when suits , if you truly believe masks should be worn in indoor settings to protect others you would have been discarding gov rules and not drinking in a pub without one 

I don’t have a phobia of masks I have a phobia of bs. 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Archied

[G STAR RAM]

48 minutes ago, Archied said:

Here’s what interest me , you are so pro mask wearing in indoors setting that you wear one when not mandated by government and pilloried anyone not follow your choice yet by your own admission you have been happy to walk into a pub wearing a mask but sit drinking without it ( pure theatre ) 

seems it’s ok to follow rules when suits , if you truly believe masks should be worn in indoor settings to protect others you would have been discarding gov rules and not drinking in a pub without one 

I don’t have a phobia of masks I have a phobia of bs. 

This is where 'The Science' comes in though. 

Dont forget this airborne virus doesnt spread when you are sat down, after 10pm or if you are having food with your beer. Or if you are part of Government as we are now learning.

[G STAR RAM]

I was of the impression that 2 doses of the vaccine were not enough to stop you catching any variant of Covid, so not sure why the BBC have chose to report it like this?

[uttoxram75]

Had a browse through the Pfizer documents that were released under a FOIA in the US earlier. Anyone else had a look?

Its what the US FDA wanted to hide for 55 years I think.

Forget about conspiracy theories and all the rest of the faff, should this be discussed/debated openly in the press/TV/media?

I would have thought its a fairly important part of the overall discussion.

By not discussing things like this they end up becoming conspiracy theorists wet dreams instead of allowing transparent debate.

[Eddie]

13 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

Had a browse through the Pfizer documents that were released under a FOIA in the US earlier. Anyone else had a look?

Its what the US FDA wanted to hide for 55 years I think.

Forget about conspiracy theories and all the rest of the faff, should this be discussed/debated openly in the press/TV/media?

I would have thought its a fairly important part of the overall discussion.

By not discussing things like this they end up becoming conspiracy theorists wet dreams instead of allowing transparent debate.

All 329,000 pages?

The '55 years' bit is somewhat misleading, although according to the proposed timescale, that's how long it would take end to end. All patent and product-related information has to be redacted (I know that for a fact because my name is on certain patents and product-related information associated with a large pharmaceutical company, dating back to my research in bronchotherapy in the 1970s, and I'm pretty sure that I don't want the press knocking on my door asking questions about research I was conducting 50 years ago - not that I've got anything to hide, but some areas are still covered by the OSA), so the FDA initially proposed to release 500 pages per month. According to the FDA, they only have 10 people in the department responsible for processing FOI requests, and they currently have over 400 such outstanding requests.

[Gritstone Ram]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I was of the impression that 2 doses of the vaccine were not enough to stop you catching any variant of Covid, so not sure why the BBC have chose to report it like this?

You were up to last week 

Anyway here’s the latest variant.

 

[Eddie]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I was of the impression that 2 doses of the vaccine were not enough to stop you catching any variant of Covid, so not sure why the BBC have chose to report it like this?

Viruses spontaneously mutate over time. The more infected hosts there are (the more people who have the disease), the more opportunities there are for mutations to take place - and some of those mutations can change certain characteristics of the virus. These mutations can affect the transmissibility, the way it can evade the body's defences, the areas of the body it attacks, the severity of the illness caused etc.

It's a bit of a crapshoot. There's a possibility that a variant becomes dominant which is as benign as the common cold (which is also a coronavirus) - the other extreme is also possible, in which case we could be faced with a mass-extinction event.

 

 

[ramit]

 

[Archied]

4 hours ago, ramit said:

 

They are only following orders ??‍♂️

[JoetheRam]

10 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

I was of the impression that 2 doses of the vaccine were not enough to stop you catching any variant of Covid, so not sure why the BBC have chose to report it like this?

Got to agree on that one. I thought exactly the same when I read it.

"Three doses better than two at preventing severe illness if you get Covid" is probably not as eye catching though.

[Archied]

6 hours ago, Eddie said:

Viruses spontaneously mutate over time. The more infected hosts there are (the more people who have the disease), the more opportunities there are for mutations to take place - and some of those mutations can change certain characteristics of the virus. These mutations can affect the transmissibility, the way it can evade the body's defences, the areas of the body it attacks, the severity of the illness caused etc.

It's a bit of a crapshoot. There's a possibility that a variant becomes dominant which is as benign as the common cold (which is also a coronavirus) - the other extreme is also possible, in which case we could be faced with a mass-extinction event.

 

 

Well given that the virus is very much spreading amongst the vaccinated and un vaccinated pretty much alike , would you say the virus was less likely to mutate in the vaccinated person ?More likely ? or about the same ? My gut is more because it is comming up against something different in the vaccinated,,

not a pop at the vaccine just a pop at those playing the blame game and wrongly using the unvaccinated to force their will on others and exercise they’re need to punish someone ,a bit like Andrew Neal calls for

Edited December 11, 2021 by Archied

[G STAR RAM]

7 hours ago, Eddie said:

Viruses spontaneously mutate over time. The more infected hosts there are (the more people who have the disease), the more opportunities there are for mutations to take place - and some of those mutations can change certain characteristics of the virus. These mutations can affect the transmissibility, the way it can evade the body's defences, the areas of the body it attacks, the severity of the illness caused etc.

It's a bit of a crapshoot. There's a possibility that a variant becomes dominant which is as benign as the common cold (which is also a coronavirus) - the other extreme is also possible, in which case we could be faced with a mass-extinction event.

Thanks, but just to confirm, 2 doses of the vaccine doesnt appear to stop you contracrting any strain of it, and neither will 3 doses?

Edited December 11, 2021 by G STAR RAM

[maxjam]

9 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Had a browse through the Pfizer documents that were released under a FOIA in the US earlier. Anyone else had a look?

Its what the US FDA wanted to hide for 55 years I think.

Forget about conspiracy theories and all the rest of the faff, should this be discussed/debated openly in the press/TV/media?

I would have thought its a fairly important part of the overall discussion.

By not discussing things like this they end up becoming conspiracy theorists wet dreams instead of allowing transparent debate.

You are right, yet the CEO of pfizer will readily call anti-vaxxers criminals (despite his company having to pay some of the biggest fines in corporate history) yet they don't want to move heaven and earth to allay any fears that not releasing all the data my do.

Only have 10 ppl to review 300k pages?  Gimme a break, they are literally making billions in profits.  If Govts want to reduce the fears of some people with genuine concerns they should order Pfizer to stump up the cash and hire a few more ppl to get the documents out to the public as a matter of priority.

[G STAR RAM]

26 minutes ago, maxjam said:

You are right, yet the CEO of pfizer will readily call anti-vaxxers criminals (despite his company having to pay some of the biggest fines in corporate history) yet they don't want to move heaven and earth to allay any fears that not releasing all the data my do.

Only have 10 ppl to review 300k pages?  Gimme a break, they are literally making billions in profits.  If Govts want to reduce the fears of some people with genuine concerns they should order Pfizer to stump up the cash and hire a few more ppl to get the documents out to the public as a matter of priority.

Break it down, 500 pages per month, thats 25 per pages per day. 

10 employees, 2.5 pages per day.

There's obviously a reason why they dont want this releasing.

[Gritstone Ram]

Not sure how bad this latest variant is but if we end up closing the doors at football grounds that will finish us off.

[uttoxram75]

9 hours ago, Eddie said:

All 329,000 pages?

The '55 years' bit is somewhat misleading, although according to the proposed timescale, that's how long it would take end to end. All patent and product-related information has to be redacted (I know that for a fact because my name is on certain patents and product-related information associated with a large pharmaceutical company, dating back to my research in bronchotherapy in the 1970s, and I'm pretty sure that I don't want the press knocking on my door asking questions about research I was conducting 50 years ago - not that I've got anything to hide, but some areas are still covered by the OSA), so the FDA initially proposed to release 500 pages per month. According to the FDA, they only have 10 people in the department responsible for processing FOI requests, and they currently have over 400 such outstanding requests.

It doesn't stand up Eddie.

It took the FDA 108 days to scrutinise 59,000 pages to feel confident enough to then issue Pfizer an Emergency Use Authorisation to use the vaccine.

This quote from Aaron Siri, the American Attorney, is difficult to argue with imo.

“If you find what you are reading difficult to believe – that is because it is dystopian for the government to give Pfizer billions, mandate Americans to take its product, prohibit Americans from suing for harms, but yet refuse to let Americans see the data underlying its licensure,”