rammieib Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 12 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said: You should get the contracted pay at the agreed date of payment. However, the average first team Derby County footballer could buy the average 3-4 bed house in a very good area with the best car to go on the drive with 6 months wages. Let's not forget the lovely signing on fee if the club cashs in, the player does as well, they won't leave unless they benefit. I wouldn't concern yourself too much. No they couldn’t - are you forgetting that their take home pay is roughly just over half their weekly wage. So over six months, someone on 10k basic a week has taken home about £140k. So please stop the flippant comments when they are absolutely wrong. Fact is, they’ve signed a contract, Derby is their employer, they should be paid the contracted amount on the date their contract says it’s due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tram Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 Did any players (from any club) volunteer to take a pay-cut, to help clubs get through Coronavirus? This may have helped cash flow! (I wonder if future football contracts might include an element of pay based upon turnstile numbers!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Half Fan Half Biscuit Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 Maybe if the takeover doesn't go through the club is on the brink of administration. In that case paying anybody in preference to anyone else can have personal consequences for the directors. Don't think I'd be comfortable shelling out £1.5 mill + and having it come back on me personally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee SCREAMER !! Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, rammieib said: No they couldn’t - are you forgetting that their take home pay is roughly just over half their weekly wage. So over six months, someone on 10k basic a week has taken home about £140k. So please stop the flippant comments when they are absolutely wrong. Fact is, they’ve signed a contract, Derby is their employer, they should be paid the contracted amount on the date their contract says it’s due. Yep they get none of that money back by investing in tax free art projects or LLP or claiming entrepreneurs relief. Shall I get you a violin to play outside some of there houses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tram Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 4 minutes ago, rammieib said: No they couldn’t - are you forgetting that their take home pay is roughly just over half their weekly wage. So over six months, someone on 10k basic a week has taken home about £140k. So please stop the flippant comments when they are absolutely wrong. Fact is, they’ve signed a contract, Derby is their employer, they should be paid the contracted amount on the date their contract says it’s due. Part of me agrees (strongly). However, part of me wonders if this is because I am seeing it from the perspective of being a traditional employee with typical wages! Perhaps those working within a multi-million entertainment industry see it differently? They may have a different perspective and understanding about how huge amounts of money get moved about - and understand that they are rewarded a massive premium based upon being in the entertainment industry. .... It's comparable to someone who's only ever worked on a zero-hours contract. They wouldn't fully understand the nuances of what it's like to enjoy the benefits and rewards of a permanent monthly contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBRammette Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said: Yep they get none of that money back by investing in tax free art projects or LLP or claiming entrepreneurs relief. Shall I get you a violin to play outside some of there houses. Please could you explain how the players would use each of the tax schemes you mention to get their tax back as I would very interested in how it would work for them or us obviously? Also how many of our players past or present have been listed in case papers brought by HMRC relating to tax avoidance schemes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee SCREAMER !! Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 3 minutes ago, CBRammette said: Please could you explain how the players would use each of the tax schemes you mention to get their tax back as I would very interested in how it would work for them or us obviously? Also how many of our players past or present have been listed in case papers brought by HMRC relating to tax avoidance schemes? None are tax avoidance . There all legal although some of the laws were changed in the nineties to close loopholes relating to investment in production companies so you have seen some players listed then. The point I'm making is that unless you have a very upfront and genuine individual they won't be paying tax at the set rates applying to each individual, without utilising accountants to get as much back as possible. HMRC are unlikely to make such things public knowledge as a general rule. There very good with data protection. Regarding how to do it that's a very long conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 12 minutes ago, CBRammette said: Please could you explain how the players would use each of the tax schemes you mention to get their tax back as I would very interested in how it would work for them or us obviously? Also how many of our players past or present have been listed in case papers brought by HMRC relating to tax avoidance schemes? Tax avoidance is perfectly legal. HMRC may wish to close loopholes but I doubt there would be a case brought against it. And yes, there are creative ways to minimise your tax bill legally. Ask Jimmy Carr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 12 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Tax avoidance is perfectly legal. HMRC may wish to close loopholes but I doubt there would be a case brought against it. And yes, there are creative ways to minimise your tax bill legally. Ask Jimmy Carr. Even saints are at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mucker1884 Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 Whilst seeing in the new year drinking The Devil's Advocaat... "In a letter sent to players which has been seen by Telegraph Sport, Derby’s chief executive Stephen Pearce wrote: “On behalf of Derby County Football Club, Mel Morris, and prospective new owners Derventio Holdings, we collectively apologise, that due to an unexpected and last minute delay in the closing of the sale transaction, that your December pay will most likely be delayed until next week." The above suggests a joint statement. “We have been assured by Derventio that the closing funds have been remitted, but as at this morning they had not arrived in their lawyer’s client account. “As soon as they arrive, the transaction will close and we will process any outstanding payroll amounts immediately.” The above suggests a statement solely by the current ownership, i.e. Mel. For those who state that Derventio have made a statement claiming to have deposited the funds ("Remitted"), it could be argued that isn't the case. Only that DCFC have said that Derventio have said they have! #justsayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBRammette Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 30 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said: None are tax avoidance . There all legal although some of the laws were changed in the nineties to close loopholes relating to investment in production companies so you have seen some players listed then. The point I'm making is that unless you have a very upfront and genuine individual they won't be paying tax at the set rates applying to each individual, without utilising accountants to get as much back as possible. HMRC are unlikely to make such things public knowledge as a general rule. There very good with data protection. Regarding how to do it that's a very long conversation. Names are always listed in case documentation for tax avoidance scheme cases. It makes interesting reading. Most tax avoidance shutdown happened with the introduction of legislation after 2010 as you seem to be referring to film partnership type schemes which were earlier and set many case law precedents. The whole climate has changed. Tax planning which you refer to is no different legally to investing in an ISA which I am sure many on here do. I am sorry I got a bit grumpy at your broad brush assumptions regarding the players and throwing around tax terms which are likely inappropriate to their circumstances anyway. Whether you have sympathy and wouldnt stand outside their houses with a violin is irrelevant as they are legally required to be paid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBRammette Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 49 minutes ago, GboroRam said: Tax avoidance is perfectly legal. HMRC may wish to close loopholes but I doubt there would be a case brought against it. And yes, there are creative ways to minimise your tax bill legally. Ask Jimmy Carr. Many many enquiries are raised that are settled before they get in the public domain which Jimmy Carr probably wishes he had done. That scheme was many years ago now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 2 minutes ago, CBRammette said: Many many enquiries are raised that are settled before they get in the public domain which Jimmy Carr probably wishes he had done. That scheme was many years ago now. Carr says he trusted his accountant, which is probably what Rashford did. Should they ask more questions? Probably. Should we be more aggressive on tax avoidance and ensuring the public purse is fairly filled? Absolutely. Do people of wealth have more options available to ensure they can avoid taxation when compared with those who have little wealth? Undoubtedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBRammette Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 1 minute ago, GboroRam said: Carr says he trusted his accountant, which is probably what Rashford did. Should they ask more questions? Probably. Should we be more aggressive on tax avoidance and ensuring the public purse is fairly filled? Absolutely. Do people of wealth have more options available to ensure they can avoid taxation when compared with those who have little wealth? Undoubtedly. A rubbish defence. He is and always was the one signing off his tax return not the accountant. Agree with your points but the appetite for it has totally reduced due to the reputational risk involved now and huge increase in tax avoidance disclosure legislation as HMRC is far more aggressive - it just doesnt suit the media's agenda to mention it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee SCREAMER !! Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 18 minutes ago, CBRammette said: Names are always listed in case documentation for tax avoidance scheme cases. It makes interesting reading. Most tax avoidance shutdown happened with the introduction of legislation after 2010 as you seem to be referring to film partnership type schemes which were earlier and set many case law precedents. The whole climate has changed. Tax planning which you refer to is no different legally to investing in an ISA which I am sure many on here do. I am sorry I got a bit grumpy at your broad brush assumptions regarding the players and throwing around tax terms which are likely inappropriate to their circumstances anyway. Whether you have sympathy and wouldnt stand outside their houses with a violin is irrelevant as they are legally required to be paid As I stated at the start of my original post there wages should be paid . There not broad brush. I was referring to film partnership schemes which were closed in the late 90's as a base point. Been plenty since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinhectoring Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Ken Tram said: And why do press statements not use plain English?! Some do. The ones that don’t are written by lawyers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 58 minutes ago, CBRammette said: A rubbish defence. He is and always was the one signing off his tax return not the accountant. Agree with your points but the appetite for it has totally reduced due to the reputational risk involved now and huge increase in tax avoidance disclosure legislation as HMRC is far more aggressive - it just doesnt suit the media's agenda to mention it. An accountant can advise you, but it's your money, tax, and responsibility. If you find you owe tax after being poorly advised, you still owe the tax, but may be able to claim the advice damaged you and go that route, but taxman still wants your tax, owed by you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 Top Players could get endorsements from other companies and that’s easier to ‘hide’. I guess (and it is only a guess) that a player could set up a company in a tax haven (Jersey) and then that company is paid in Jersey where very little tax is paid. That company then buys a Private Yacht which the footballer than uses. Players at Derby will be paid through PAYE hence tax is paid. This was very public a few months ago during the pandemic as a lot of the TV money, ultimately ends up back with the taxman. Anyway I’m off to play my ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 10 minutes ago, rammieib said: Top Players could get endorsements from other companies and that’s easier to ‘hide’. I guess (and it is only a guess) that a player could set up a company in a tax haven (Jersey) and then that company is paid in Jersey where very little tax is paid. That company then buys a Private Yacht which the footballer than uses. Players at Derby will be paid through PAYE hence tax is paid. This was very public a few months ago during the pandemic as a lot of the TV money, ultimately ends up back with the taxman. Anyway I’m off to play my ? So you're on the fiddle too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimtastic56 Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 Hope this does not effect the players today. Shef W players put in a very flat performance when it happened to them recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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