Is this Rooney's team or McClaren?

[i-Ram]

2 hours ago, Ellafella said:

Wow! See. ? 

Wow, see what?  You have an obsession with McClaren, Martin and 433. I am beginning to think with me too. For the record, and this is only my opinion (not trying to create humour) but since 2006 (when Mac got the England gig and Martin made his league debut) Martin has had about 4 good seasons as a footballer, and McClaren about 3 as a manager. The fact that both had a couple of good years together with us at Derby doesn’t make their overall record any different. They are both pretty average performers during those 14 years.

[Stockport Ram]

We defend too well for it to be a Mac team.

My feeling about 2013/14 was that we didn't lack goals under Nigel, and it was confirmed when I looked at the numbers - 20 goals in 12 league and cup games, 3 straight away wins (including one against an eventual playoff rival) - we simply had apparently abysmal home form  . Unfortunately for us, the fixture computer gave us the champions, runners up and 7th placed team for the 3 home defeats - so perhaps these defeats don't really tell the whole story, but it provided enough ammunition, together with Fozzy not tracking Jack Hobbs at Forest, for Sam Smarm to get rid of him.

 

He had however instilled enough defensive acumen for it to remain in muscle memory until May, and Mac's removal of the handbrake (again, looking at the goals scored prior to his arrival, a little exaggerated, albeit the style was clearly more expansive), produced a memorable three quarters of a season which included deforestation and Billy's demise.

Oh how I larfed.

 

I digress a little - my point is that from the start of the following season we looked more like Keystone Cops defending - a trait all too evident in the Newcastle defence under Mac when he so gloriously failed there too.

 

I'd say if Mac is having ANY real influence on the current upturn  then it would logically be in the attacking dept rather than the defensive one. It will take us a while (like it did in 2014) to defend as woefully as we did under his first full season in 14/15.   We'll only really know if we start defending like policemen in a black and white movie come September 2021.  

 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

Whatever the team set up,I’m not at all sure why anyone’s arguing about it.

If it’s working,whether or not you like Rooney or Mac or the rest of the coaching staff,who cares??

Lets just keep improving.

[Ellafella]

1 hour ago, i-Ram said:

Wow, see what?  You have an obsession with McClaren, Martin and 433. I am beginning to think with me too. For the record, and this is only my opinion (not trying to create humour) but since 2006 (when Mac got the England gig and Martin made his league debut) Martin has had about 4 good seasons as a footballer, and McClaren about 3 as a manager. The fact that both had a couple of good years together with us at Derby doesn’t make their overall record any different. They are both pretty average performers during those 14 years.

Really?! You asked where I had evidence that Mac3 was advising Wazza. You stated this was not part of Mac3’s job. So, @i-Ram“see” means here’s the evidence that you asked for. Want me to copy your post to remind you any further? Anything else I can help you with, don’t hesitate. ?Enjoy your day. 

[i-Ram]

1 hour ago, Ellafella said:

Really?! You asked where I had evidence that Mac3 was advising Wazza. You stated this was not part of Mac3’s job. So, @i-Ram“see” means here’s the evidence that you asked for. Want me to copy your post to remind you any further? Anything else I can help you with, don’t hesitate. ?Enjoy your day. 

[May Contain Nuts]

3 hours ago, Stockport Ram said:

We defend too well for it to be a Mac team.

He had however instilled enough defensive acumen for it to remain in muscle memory until May, and Mac's removal of the handbrake (again, looking at the goals scored prior to his arrival, a little exaggerated, albeit the style was clearly more expansive), produced a memorable three quarters of a season which included deforestation and Billy's demise.

I digress a little - my point is that from the start of the following season we looked more like Keystone Cops defending - a trait all too evident in the Newcastle defence under Mac when he so gloriously failed there too.

I'd say if Mac is having ANY real influence on the current upturn  then it would logically be in the attacking dept rather than the defensive one. It will take us a while (like it did in 2014) to defend as woefully as we did under his first full season in 14/15.   We'll only really know if we start defending like policemen in a black and white movie come September 2021.  

 

 

Yeah, we were truly awful at defending for the entirety of 2014/15 once McClaren had undone all of the good defensive work by Clough... except we weren't, that just doesn't bear out.

We sat top of the table on 24-FEB-2015 - 33 games played, 33 goals conceded (3rd best record in the league), 15 clean sheets in the league & another 5 in the cups. How awful!

At the end of the 2014/15 season even after the collapse we'd only conceded 56 - to compare that to previous seasons even at our worst, the defensive record under McClaren was better than our best record fully under Clough!

08/09 - 67 (Jewell/Clough)
09/10 - 63 (Clough)
10/11 - 71 (Clough)
11/12 - 58 (Clough)
12/13 - 62 (Clough)
13/14 - 52 (Clough/McClaren)

...however, perversely I do somewhat agree with you - whilst the statstics were very good indeed (record breaking, in fact) our defensive record was built largely on our attacking prowess.

We conceded fewer goals beacuase of the fact that we kept the ball so well, that the opposition feared us - they ususally tried to sit back and crowd us out rather than showing much attacking intent and for the most part our defence/defending wasn't really put under much of a stress-test. 

When it was though, they crumbled, mistakes aplenty, a weak spine which never really stood up well to pressure... but that was nothing new for 2013/14 or 2014/15 and it hasn't really improved since.

towards the end of 2014/15 McClaren at one point said that he'd given up on trying to figure out a way for us to stop conceding, it wasn't exactly an encouraging message!

[Stockport Ram]

19 hours ago, Coconut said:

 

Yeah, we were truly awful at defending for the entirety of 2014/15 once McClaren had undone all of the good defensive work by Clough... except we weren't, that just doesn't bear out.

We sat top of the table on 24-FEB-2015 - 33 games played, 33 goals conceded (3rd best record in the league), 15 clean sheets in the league & another 5 in the cups. How awful!

At the end of the 2014/15 season even after the collapse we'd only conceded 56 - to compare that to previous seasons even at our worst, the defensive record under McClaren was better than our best record fully under Clough!

08/09 - 67 (Jewell/Clough)
09/10 - 63 (Clough)
10/11 - 71 (Clough)
11/12 - 58 (Clough)
12/13 - 62 (Clough)
13/14 - 52 (Clough/McClaren)

...however, perversely I do somewhat agree with you - whilst the statstics were very good indeed (record breaking, in fact) our defensive record was built largely on our attacking prowess.

We conceded fewer goals beacuase of the fact that we kept the ball so well, that the opposition feared us - they ususally tried to sit back and crowd us out rather than showing much attacking intent and for the most part our defence/defending wasn't really put under much of a stress-test. 

When it was though, they crumbled, mistakes aplenty, a weak spine which never really stood up well to pressure... but that was nothing new for 2013/14 or 2014/15 and it hasn't really improved since.

towards the end of 2014/15 McClaren at one point said that he'd given up on trying to figure out a way for us to stop conceding, it wasn't exactly an encouraging message!

An eloquent and well researched post.

Watching Newcastle when he was in charge was like watching his Derby team play in stripes.

It seems we both agree that defensive coaching isn't really Mac's strength, so shutting the back door, which was the basis of all Sir Brian's success, must have been coached by someone other than him. Rosenoir? Wazza?  Who cares !

 

This incarnation looks a little more solid than either of the aforementioned ones, albeit very early days. Perhaps because we may have finally found a DM who can do the job on his own, instead of needing two players to do it?

[Black ('n' White) Sheep]

Rooney's or McClaren's? Can't it be both? ?

The return of 4-3-3 suggests a McClaren influence... but I'd expect nothing less from an inexperienced management team taking advice from a highly experienced Sporting Director. It's a McClaren setup with added Rooney steel. I can't remember any of The Mac's team's looking as solid defensively as we have over the last 3-4 games.

[Donnyram]

7 minutes ago, Black ('n' White) Sheep said:

Rooney's or McClaren's? Can't it be both? ?

The return of 4-3-3 suggests a McClaren influence... but I'd expect nothing less from an inexperienced management team taking advice from a highly experienced Sporting Director. It's a McClaren setup with added Rooney steel. I can't remember any of The Mac's team's looking as solid defensively as we have over the last 3-4 games.

Rooney is a student of the game....... he will have his own ideas and the confidence in himself to implement them

[SamUltraRam]

McClaren is obviously writing something in his little notebook but I assume he will discuss it with Rooney post match and then it's up to Rooney whether he acts on it or not - so it's Rooney's team

How long before some lazy journalist 'thinks' up a headline about 'macaroon'

We've had McClaren as manager twice before - and we didn't get promoted, so now it's time for someone else and if that's with some assistance from McClaren then so be it but for now well done Wayne Rooney

 

 

 

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, Stockport Ram said:

It seems we both agree that defensive coaching isn't really Mac's strength, so shutting the back door, which was the basis of all Sir Brian's success, must have been coached by someone other than him. Rosenoir? Wazza?  Who cares !

Mac 2! 

"The clean sheet against the Blues was Derby’s seventh in a row in the league on home turf, which is a new club record.

Derby haven’t conceded a goal at home since 24th September and, in fact, the Rams are yet to concede a goal at Pride Park since Steve McClaren returned as manager in mid-October."

[Rampage]

This is Rooney's team. He has no future as a manager if he just wants to implement Steve's or anybody else's ideas. If Wayne is not his own man he is destined to fail. i think we have a gem of a manager.

[Comrade 86]

Really fed up with the number of revisionists we appear to have on the forum these days. It won't be a popular school of thought because in the great modern social media realm, there are middle grounds, but the sudden uplift in form and fortune is not purely down to Rooney, or Mac or even the combo thereof. I can think of 4 factors at least that have dovetailed into the improvements we've seen most recently:

• CKR - Colin's hold-up ability was obvious from the start but so was his lack of full match fitness. Even in the Swansea game he ran out of steam but he lasted most of the game and his fitness is something he is clearly working hard on. The fact is, he is brilliant at retaining possession and god how we've missed that. His goals too have been key. There weren't too many on here who saw the shrewdness of Cocu's signing but they're lining up to worship at his altar now he's come good. 
• Bielik - came in, looked good and was then promptly dropped to the U23s! Brought back and played too deep alongside Bird, we saw the defence being better screened, but still missed out on the full benefit of his ability to drive us forward. Paired with Shinnie, whom despite the perceptions of some, more than just a 'ratter', is more than able to get forward, things improved again. Finally, deployed higher up the pitch (for the 1st time against Swansea) and hey presto, we have a defensive monster with laser-like passing ability, qualities that presumably led Cocu to buy him in the first place. Those who suggested that the team's performances would improve once Cocu had CKR and KB fit were roundly derided by a good few on here, none of whom have accepted they were wrong since. 
• Defensive Screening - Ok, so this is kind of Bielik point 2 but with the terrier like Shinnie, the run-all-day attributes of Knight and the aforementioned defensive destroyer that is Krystian, the back 4 are under a deal less pressure than has previously been the case and can maintain a firmer line instead of being pulled from pillar to post. Our midfield with Rooney, Bird plus A.N. Other was being cut through like a knife through butter and with our CBs not being the quickest, that was only going to end one way. Now, most attacking threats are being nullified or at least dramatically slowed down before the back four are even asked to perform any defensive duties.
• The Takeover - Not ITK, nor direct from source, but the one pal I have who has good connections with the club, is adamant that Rooney's tenure has been approved in principle and will be immediately confirmed once the takeover is done and dusted. Apparently this has been communicated to Rooney who quite understandably, wanted to know where he stood and was becoming frustrated with the delays. That removes a deal of unhelpful uncertainty not only for Wayne but also those players, especially those whose contracts are up next summer - they now know who they must impress and doubtless Wazza has made that clear. Never underestimate how incentivised players become when faced with a new contract versus the uncertainty of finding a new club.

There are plenty of other factors that also dovetail into what some are viewing as a perfect storm, but whilst Cocu had no luck at all, Rooney has had every bit going, make no mistake about it. Some will argue that we make our own luck and to a point, I agree but Wayne was very fortunate to get anywhere near the gig in the first place, having been both piss poor on the pitch and also closely tied into the coaching regime that so many saw as total failures. Had the club been more organised, Cocu's successor would have been lined up at the time of his sacking and we'd never have seen the shambolic 'committee' experiment, let alone Wayne enjoying the aforementioned windfalls.

As things stand and setting aside luck or lack of it, Wayne has now taken his opportunity and he should be commended for that. I don't think anyone should be arguing currently that the job should not be his. But let's not forget that had Brentford had not completely forgotten what the big white, stringy thing is, then things could be rather different and whilst some on here will revel in their smugness, they might wish to consider whilst posting whiny bolarks about the supposed 'Rooney haters', that literally nobody wants to see Wayne fail, because if he fails, so does the club we all follow. Such assertions are frankly pathetic and deserve every bit of contempt they garner. 

COYR

[Will Hughes Hair]

On 19/12/2020 at 09:23, DC-1975 said:

McClaren had more success with Middlesbrough than he ever had here, yet they don’t seem obsessed with him. I’ve never even seen his name linked with going back.

Any mention of McClaren at Boro is punishable by death on the order of Steve Gibson.

Apparently the betrayal felt by the wiry haired Boro owner is so bad that he was actually physically sick when he saw Mac high five Mel on the telly during the Swansea game.

True story.

[Sith Happens]

7 minutes ago, Will Hughes Hair said:

Any mention of McClaren at Boro is punishable by death on the order of Steve Gibson.

Apparently the betrayal felt by the wiry haired Boro owner is so bad that he was actually physically sick when he saw Mac high five Mel on the telly during the Swansea game.

True story.

You do have to feel sorry for him though, he must be physically sick everytime he looks in the mirror and realises his head looks like an upside down scrotum.

[Stockport Ram]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Mac 2! 

"The clean sheet against the Blues was Derby’s seventh in a row in the league on home turf, which is a new club record.

Derby haven’t conceded a goal at home since 24th September and, in fact, the Rams are yet to concede a goal at Pride Park since Steve McClaren returned as manager in mid-October."

....and then the wheels came off.

 

3 at Norwich and Brighton, 3 and 4 at HOME to Bristol City and Cardiff, and six out of seven defeats away from home.

 

Generally, the longer he was in charge the more panicky and less assured our defence looked.  There was a clear difference between Nigel's ""just kick it and head it" defending and the defence on each Mac occasion after he had settled in. Neither worked well but we just seemed to panic and run around aimlessly in our own third under Mac.

Attack was definitely the best form of defence !

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

the one pal I have who has good connections with the club, is adamant that Rooney's tenure has been approved in principle

surprising, it's still v early days. But it's supported by the fact WR has told the world he has an interview next week  

I'd like his 'tenure' initially to be short term (end of season) and for him to agree during that period to continue to work with the current team of SM and LR. But that's merely making him caretaker to the end of the season and I guess he'll be told by his agent to ask for much more

Loved your post 86HIs 

[wollatonram]

On 19/12/2020 at 10:12, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Whatever the team set up,I’m not at all sure why anyone’s arguing about it.

If it’s working,whether or not you like Rooney or Mac or the rest of the coaching staff,who cares??

Lets just keep improving.

exactly, they have found a correct forumla. as long as it continues nothing should change, and that includes keeping rooney as interim and not giving him the job full time until he keeps us safe.

[Comrade 86]

14 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

surprising, it's still v early days. But it's supported by the fact WR has told the world he has an interview next week  

I'd like his 'tenure' initially to be short term (end of season) and for him to agree during that period to continue to work with the current team of SM and LR. But that's merely making him caretaker to the end of the season and I guess he'll be told by his agent to ask for much more

Loved your post 86HIs 

Yeah, I actually put this to my pal but he's adamant it's a rubber stamp job and other 'metrics' I won't go into strongly suggest that he's right. He's definitely not one for idle gossip anyway.

As for the post, cheers. I post how I see it and won't be changing that. If folk don't like it that's their prerogative. I'm not 100% about Wazza myself, but I just don't see how they can take it from him now. It'd be grossly unfair and would throw the club and players straight back onto the merry-go-round of uncertainty, so whether Wayne is the right guy or not is somewhat moot. Leaving him in situ until end of season, seems the only sensible option currently available and despite my doubts, I'd be disappointed were the club to make any other call. If we suddenly go into freefall again, then that'd change things, but I think that's highly unlikely. Hopefully Wazza and the team will maintain progress anyway. I thought he made some very basic errors early doors but in fairness, he corrected them very swiftly and that's a really good trait to have. He seems a quick learner.

As for the future, I think Top 6 is long gone now, but I can see us finishing comfortably mid-table and having a strong and settled squad for 2021. There's steel at the spine of the starting 11 now and really that's the key element that was missing IMO. They've never been as poor a group as some make out, though they have been highly fragile. Another season of 'transition' is not what any of us were hoping for, but if we bury the ghost of 2020 once and for all, that'll do for me.

COYR

[minesahartington]

6 hours ago, SamUltraRam said:

McClaren is obviously writing something in his little notebook but I assume he will discuss it with Rooney post match and then it's up to Rooney whether he acts on it or not - so it's Rooney's team

How long before some lazy journalist 'thinks' up a headline about 'macaroon'

We've had McClaren as manager twice before - and we didn't get promoted, so now it's time for someone else and if that's with some assistance from McClaren then so be it but for now well done Wayne Rooney

 

 

 

Re the notebook..He’s still struggling and late to submit his Dutch Duolingo homework. Got the accent off to a tee but grammar letting him down