Cocu the Future ?

[RamNut]

10 minutes ago, BOB BIGGS said:

I’ve been baffled by the high level of expectation in recent weeks. That run-in looked so tough and it proved to be too much for us. Even without the kamikaze sending offs and stabbing/injuries, it always looked a big ask to finish 6th.

 

No-one would disagree. 
i think we just liked to imagine what if. Starting with, what if we beat forest? What if we’ve turned a corner? 

we haven’t. We didn’t.
One big horrible dose of reality medicine later........

 

[Andicis]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

Then we can bring someone else in for a season or two and then get rid of them.

Kinda what happens in football if you don't perform.

[therealhantsram]

19 hours ago, Ramfan1958 said:

Is Cocu the Future in my opinion it's a no .

Is Rooney the Future as a player again it's a no.

I think this is the worst Derby team for many a year. 

Really worried if we play 50% academy players next year that we could be relegated. 

Just being  honest !!!

Reading this forum is like having a bipolar girlfriend. 

[cheron85]

18 hours ago, Ramfan1958 said:

Is Cocu the Future in my opinion it's a no .

Is Rooney the Future as a player again it's a no.

I think this is the worst Derby team for many a year. 

Really worried if we play 50% academy players next year that we could be relegated. 

Just being  honest !!!

I don't think you understand what honesty means - Your opinion is more than welcome (however wrongheaded it is) but "being honest" isn't the same as "deciding to spout your opinion" - Honesty doesn't come into it...

If you think this is the worst team for many years you haven't been watching much of us - We were worse under Nigel Clough (mostly because of the lack of available talent), worse under Pearson (style of play and results) and IMO worse under Rowett and Clement (for style of play) - We had a good spell with McClaren and it was nice last season - But Macca had the benefit of a squad built over a long period of time and Lampard had 3 extremely gifted loan players

Cocu has had a single season under very tricky conditions - He was handed a squad last minute with little time to assess them and with pretty much all our transfer dealings having been completed - He then lost his captain early in the season, had to cope with on and off field nonsense and losing loads of players to injury (plus COVID) and is still essentially working with a patchwork squad of other managers players

If we're sitting here next summer with no discernible improvement then I might start thinking you have an interesting point - But looking at things after this year and saying that makes me think you have a painfully short term viewpoint on everything - Try taking a look at the big picture

[RamNut]

10 minutes ago, therealhantsram said:

Reading this forum is like having a bipolar girlfriend. 

Reading this forum is like having a bi-sexual pole dancing girlfriend. 

[Ellafella]

17 hours ago, RamNut said:

I’ve said all i need to say on Rooney, and 4231 and upset Daveo in the process.

many Seem to be coming round to the point of view that something more positive is required.
Cocu deserves the chance show what he’s about and bring in the players he wants. 
my doubts are that even when he has done that, we carry on with is tedious ineffective slow passing. 

Picking academy players is easy, but - unlike the academy - in this league results matter. And performances matter too.

that’s the next test.

We had a nice little honeymoon period courtesy of Rooney; however we have slipped back into that “sleepwalking” form of football that is just so easy for opposition teams to contain. That style will not get us anywhere in the Championship. It’s languid and tedious to watch even if it was effective - which it ain’t. 

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, Ellafella said:

We had a nice little honeymoon period courtesy of Rooney; however we have slipped back into that “sleepwalking” form of football that is just so easy for opposition teams to contain.

Not really had much choice lately, we needed to not lose to keep our chances of top 6 going. But there wasn't even enough squad depth for that overall.

[duncanjwitham]

19 minutes ago, cheron85 said:

it was nice last season

Even last season, we had a fair few catastrophically awful games (Villa x2, Leeds at home, off the top of my head) and a lot of games where we huffed and puffed, created very little, but then the likes of Wilson scored a wondergoal out of nowhere.  We certainly weren't playing wonderful, free-flowing, attacking football for anywhere near the majority of it. 

[cheron85]

7 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Even last season, we had a fair few catastrophically awful games (Villa x2, Leeds at home, off the top of my head) and a lot of games where we huffed and puffed, created very little, but then the likes of Wilson scored a wondergoal out of nowhere.  We certainly weren't playing wonderful, free-flowing, attacking football for anywhere near the majority of it. 

Agreed

I actually think we look better as a unit now than we did last season - As you say we relied on a piece of wonder play from Wilson or Mount to win a lot of games - And ones against much inferior opposition - We also had 2 actual CBs for the whole year, both of whom (I think) are better than our best CB now

Add a keeper and a couple of extra talented wingers/inside forwards (whatever we want to call Lawrence's position) and we have the basis of a decent squad - Time playing together will help cut out the stupid mistakes and having more players in the squad will help rotation and the better players getting too tired/jaded - Having a backup for Rooney and Sibley over the last few weeks would have made a huge difference

[Stive Pesley]

24 minutes ago, Ellafella said:

we have slipped back into that “sleepwalking” form of football that is just so easy for opposition teams to contain. That style will not get us anywhere in the Championship. It’s languid and tedious to watch even if it was effective - which it ain’t. 

It's the Championship paradox. Yes it's  tedious to watch your team have 70% posession, but never get anywhere in the final third due to two banks of 5 blocking the way - but then likewise, it's just as tedious to watch your team defend for 87 minutes and score with your one counter-attack.

Both styles will have you in and about the play-offs as it becomes a battle of who can nullify the others style best

It's been worse then ever this season - hence the relatively minor gap between bottom 3 and top six, and how we can realistically finish 12/13th despite being a point off the play-offs with 3 left to play

 

[BondJovi]

19 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Even last season, we had a fair few catastrophically awful games (Villa x2, Leeds at home, off the top of my head) and a lot of games where we huffed and puffed, created very little, but then the likes of Wilson scored a wondergoal out of nowhere.  We certainly weren't playing wonderful, free-flowing, attacking football for anywhere near the majority of it. 

Until Bennett's wonder/fluke goal against Wigan(?) we were awful in that match, funny how that kind of luck just hasn't really happened for Cocu.

[RamNut]

12 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

Until Bennett's wonder/fluke goal against Wigan(?) we were awful in that match, funny how that kind of luck just hasn't really happened for Cocu.

What about Shinnie’s wonder goal v Wigan?

[BondJovi]

Just now, RamNut said:

What about Shinnie’s wonder goal v Wigan?

I think in Bennett's case it was just so ridiculous. Shinnie's you may repeat in a career, Bennett's you won't.

[Ramarena]

People seem to think last season we smashing teams left right and cente. But I remember numerous tedious, boring games especially after mount got injured.

Lampard had three quality players and a lot of luck last season. Cocus has the kitchen sink thrown at him and yes he’s made mistakes, but still their results are not too far apart all things considered.

I think the last few weeks will turn out to be a useful reality check. Cocu is clearly not happy with aspects of his team in the last few games and hopefully he can correct the problems we face this pre-season, funds will be a problem but hopefully there will be more loans/freebies/freeagents than most years! 

 

[Ramfan1958]

2 hours ago, cheron85 said:

I don't think you understand what honesty means - Your opinion is more than welcome (however wrongheaded it is) but "being honest" isn't the same as "deciding to spout your opinion" - Honesty doesn't come into it...

If you think this is the worst team for many years you haven't been watching much of us - We were worse under Nigel Clough (mostly because of the lack of available talent), worse under Pearson (style of play and results) and IMO worse under Rowett and Clement (for style of play) - We had a good spell with McClaren and it was nice last season - But Macca had the benefit of a squad built over a long period of time and Lampard had 3 extremely gifted loan players

Cocu has had a single season under very tricky conditions - He was handed a squad last minute with little time to assess them and with pretty much all our transfer dealings having been completed - He then lost his captain early in the season, had to cope with on and off field nonsense and losing loads of players to injury (plus COVID) and is still essentially working with a patchwork squad of other managers players

If we're sitting here next summer with no discernible improvement then I might start thinking you have an interesting point - But looking at things after this year and saying that makes me think you have a painfully short term viewpoint on everything - Try taking a look at the big picture

Like I mentioned 45 season ticket holder so seen some crap would you back Cocu team to beat Rowetts? wish I could get a bet on with he bookies. 

 

My Dutch friends all PSV fans say Cocu football is boring even though he won them the title. 

[Jayram]

I have no problem with Cocu getting the whole of next season to show what he can do but I have a sinking feeling that we've seen what he has offer already to a large extent - lots of pointless possession with no end product. To paraphrase Cloughie we float like a butterfly and sting like one too.

For once I'd just like to see us play really good flowing attacking football a la 2013/14 - is it too much to ask?

[lrm14]

12 minutes ago, Ramfan1958 said:

Like I mentioned 45 season ticket holder so seen some crap would you back Cocu team to beat Rowetts? wish I could get a bet on with he bookies. 

 

My Dutch friends all PSV fans say Cocu football is boring even though he won them the title. 

Rowett had a better squad at his disposal than Cocu and still barely scraped the playoffs so I don't think that really proves your point.

[cheron85]

7 minutes ago, Ramfan1958 said:

Like I mentioned 45 season ticket holder so seen some crap would you back Cocu team to beat Rowetts? wish I could get a bet on with he bookies. 

My Dutch friends all PSV fans say Cocu football is boring even though he won them the title. 

I wouldn't beat this team at the moment to beat the team we had under Rowett no - But I would back a team under Cocu's stewardship this time next year to beat them - Rowett had a lot more players to work with, more time and wasn't hampered anywhere near as badly by injuries or off field nonsense - We lost our captain and main CB plus our record signing this season

Rowett forced our two most creative players out of the club and made us play dire, defensive (mostly) hoofball - If that's the style of play you want to watch then that's up to you - But I personally think our players should actively want the ball all of the time - I firmly don't understand the mindset of a manager who doesn't want his team to have the ball for the majority of the game

Rowett made us as good as he is capable of making a side and we got given a very sharp lesson in what a real football team looks like at the end of that season - Cocu is like 50-70% of the way there in creating his side and I firmly believe if he's given the time to get the very best out of this club we're going to be a very dangerous side

[rammieib]

5 hours ago, Van Wolfie said:

Not sure I'd build the team around someone I'd never seen play for us, to be honest. Probaly wouldn't include Rooney on that list either.

Well - he's our's for three years and fairly obvious he will be our starting centre back, so I guess we have no choice but to...

Take your point on Rooney but hopefully next season, put better players around him with better movement off the ball, and without knackering him by asking him to play twice a week, he can deliver more for us. For me - he's still got a football brain which is smarter than anyone else on the pitch.

[Shipley Ram]

8 minutes ago, Jayram said:

For once I'd just like to see us play really good flowing attacking football a la 2013/14 - is it too much to ask?

Unfortuanately that was an exception, a good team was taken over by a great coach and it clicked.

 

Cocu seems to be conservative tactically, he is happy to patiently keep the ball and probe for oppertunities, and would love to get ahead and kill the game with possession

The test for him is can he make us more incisive when people are now setting up to stop how we want to play? I don't think he wants us to play a slow passing game, but that is what happens when the opponents are doing their job and stopping the easy forward passes. We need more movement or someone who can beat a player, or carry the ball from deep to disrupt the defence.