Tribunal Update

[IronRam 140.6]

If football clubs income is separated into Capex, Opex,  TOTex etc. Then couldnt player wages be capped at percentage of agreed ceilings involved in those columns on the balance sheet. 

Basic wages can only be % of annual opex balanced out by football/match day/TV income. 

Bonuses/transfer fund from a percentage of Capex column - funded from image/sponsorship/chairman's gifts/transfer fee's received.

Max losses applied as per FPP. Separating wages and transfers would even it up. Stop the hoovering up of talent to sit on benches. You My have plenty in the transfer fund (capex)but not so in the wages fund (opex)#

Or is that too simplistic.

[IronRam 140.6]

1 minute ago, IronRam 140.6 said:

If football clubs income is separated into Capex, Opex,  TOTex etc. Then couldnt player wages be capped at percentage of agreed ceilings involved in those columns on the balance sheet. 

Basic wages can only be % of annual opex balanced out by football/match day/TV income. 

Bonuses/transfer fund from a percentage of Capex column - funded from image/sponsorship/chairman's gifts etc.

Max losses applied as per FPP. Separating wages and transfers would even it up. Stop the hoovering up of talent to sit on benches. You My have plenty in the transfer fund (capex)but not so in the wages fund (opex)#

Or is that too simplistic.

Disclaimer. By some of the loose terminology you'll see I'm not an accountant. But hopefully you'll see what I'm trying to explain 

[GenBr]

29 minutes ago, Truckle said:

Glad you asked G-Ram, and as a multi-billionaire I feel ideally placed to comment.  Thing is, I get bored easily, I know I shouldn't but I just do.  This week it's a football team, last week it was an island in the Caribbean and next week.. who knows?  I rather like the look of that Bridge they have in London.  I'd be happy to pay 300K for CR but then when I sod off to my next toy it will be someone else who has to pay his wages.  I could keep him I suppose, but without a football team I'm not sure what I'd do with him.  I wonder if he's any good with a paintbrush, I've got some glossing needing on my skirting.

There was another thread in the forum that proposed that all of the money required for wages and transfers should be placed in a central pot before any contract negotiations. That way the owner cant just leave a club high and dry with players they cant afford, but they can spend their money however they see fit.

Its not like FFP is stopping clubs going into administration in any case.

9 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

Thats the very reason FFP was brought in in the first place. When Man City gate crashed the top four the big clubs made sure no one else could do it.

Theres only so many Champions League places to go around.

When we were winning leagues we were also breaking transfer records. Money has always been the route to success, but all the rules now are designed to prevent a repeat of Man City.

[Tamworthram]

45 minutes ago, lagavulinram said:

will we hear on monday then?

We will definitely hear by Monday. I can guarantee you that.

 

 

 

 

 

As to which Monday, that’s anyone’s guess.

[RandomAccessMemory]

I've still not read a single plausible reason for the EFL's valuation being less than those of 2007 and 2013.

Whatever happens, I'll be eagerly awaiting the release of the written reasoning, as I am for the Sheffield Wednesday case.

[Gritty]

10 hours ago, G-Ram said:

See posts about wage caps & levelling the playing field. How about FFP is broke. Its there for the big clubs. If a billionaire took over a club and wanted to throw away half his personal fortune & not leave a club with loans etc. Then why not let them do it ?‍♂️ usually money & success go hand in hand. Let mel spend what he wants gets my vote ? 

Even at grassroots my town has three local teams and the one that's doing the best is the one that's had a big lotto grant, built a new club house & has a 3g pitch. Its attracting the best local talent & they now rent out the 3g

It takes money & investing to make money. Look at man city. Massive investment at the front end, but now a sucess bigger fan base, better youth academy & in a few more years probably self-sufficient with extra prize money & shirt sales from sucess. 

How can you compete without taking a gamble ?‍♂️

The issue is that if the gamble doesn't come off and the owner either a) runs out of money; b) loses interest and/or c) sells to someone who idc run into a) or b) the club is in serious trouble and could go into administration. 

If that happens people lose their jobs, small businesses providing services to the club may not be paid, and in extremis the club can cease to exist (Bury and a threat at Charlton). 

Football clubs are community assets rather than normal businesses.  And ffp / P&S is there to try and help ensure they exist in perpetuity. I think regulations should be tougher frankly.  Why should a community asset be put at threat for a gamble? The regulations need to prevent gambles to ensure a level playing field. 

I think our desire for success should not put the long term future of a club at risk.  And in many clubs, their future is at risk

[Tamworthram]

57 minutes ago, Burtonram2066 said:

Also a very dangerous precident for the EFL to set, they have no right to dive into the value of Pride Park 

From a legal perspective Mel cannot sell the stadium for an over inflated price - it is money Laudering and illegal (in a crown court not the kangaroo court of the EFL) 

 

It may well be illegal but it is almost certainly NOT money laundering (unless Mel has some seriously dodgy business activities we’re not aware of). 
 

[admira]

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/Derby-county-efl-investigation-points-4407034

"Martyn Ziegler, The Times' chief sports reporter, writes today: "The noises around Derby's protracted disciplinary case do not sound good for the Championship club."

"Although neither outcome has been confirmed, it appears the the case is heading towards Derby being sanctioned despite the club's insistence that the EFL's charge is 'unlawful and unfair' and that it was the league itself that had made a mistake in signing off their financial declarations."

"If it does end up in a points deduction for Derby  a transfer embargo or fines are other possible punishments - then, as with Sheffield Wednesday, the sanction would be applied to next season."

[richinspain]

26 minutes ago, admira said:

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/Derby-county-efl-investigation-points-4407034

"Martyn Ziegler, The Times' chief sports reporter, writes today: "The noises around Derby's protracted disciplinary case do not sound good for the Championship club."

"Although neither outcome has been confirmed, it appears the the case is heading towards Derby being sanctioned despite the club's insistence that the EFL's charge is 'unlawful and unfair' and that it was the league itself that had made a mistake in signing off their financial declarations."

"If it does end up in a points deduction for Derby  a transfer embargo or fines are other possible punishments - then, as with Sheffield Wednesday, the sanction would be applied to next season."

Isn't this taken from the Times article posted yesterday?

[Gaspode]

17 minutes ago, richinspain said:

Isn't this taken from the Times article posted yesterday?

I think there's a clue in the line "Martyn Ziegler, The Times' chief sports reporter, writes today" ?

[richinspain]

1 minute ago, Gaspode said:

I think there's a clue in the line "Martyn Ziegler, The Times' chief sports reporter, writes today" ?

Yes, you know that, I know that, but I'm not sure @admira knows that! ?

[ariotofmyown]

2 hours ago, GenBr said:

There was another thread in the forum that proposed that all of the money required for wages and transfers should be placed in a central pot before any contract negotiations. That way the owner cant just leave a club high and dry with players they cant afford, but they can spend their money however they see fit.

Its not like FFP is stopping clubs going into administration in any case.

When we were winning leagues we were also breaking transfer records. Money has always been the route to success, but all the rules now are designed to prevent a repeat of Man City.

Yeah, I posted that one. Still struggling to see any real negatives in that system too. The non-playing side of the club can be run as a proper business and the transfers/player wages have to be all paid upfront to prevent gambling on future success.

[falconram]

If MM has overpaid for the stadium will the EFL give him a refund on the difference of the valuation to ours, I think not, this is going to get messy.

The other question you can start to ask is what about our manager , what a hand he has been dealt, will he want to stick around if we potentially start -12.

[Ted McMinn Football Genius]

I think we have to accept that whether right or wrong the EFL are going to get their pound of flesh, one way or another be it a points deduction, a transfer embargo or a fine. 
I am hoping it’s a fine and we move on ??????

Who that issue is with I am unsure whether it’s the club or Mel (he has rubbed their noses in it over recent years ????) 

There appears to be a clear and obvious agenda to punish us and it appears to be more in an effort to save face than anything else.

But surely during the obvious uncertain times we all face right now the FFP (IMO) should be abolished to allow club owners to pump the much needed cash into their club to stay afloat (should they so wish).

[Van der MoodHoover]

3 hours ago, G-Ram said:

Maybe not but if im a billionaire or a multi billionaire & want to sign Cristiano Ronaldo on 300k a week for my club then why should i be stopped.

As long as there is no debt against the club a chairman should be allowed to spend what he or she wants. Why should it be exclusively for the big clubs while the gap just gets bigger. 

 

That'd be fair enough. the ffp/p&s rules don't stop you from doing that, but they will constrain how much you can put in as "debt".

Businessmen prefer to "loan" for 2 reasons...

1) its easier for them to get their money out

2) its tax efficient for the business because interest on loans (as opposed to dividend on equity) gets corporation tax relief.

So the objective of P&S (to stop clubs being laden with debt and then liquidated like Leicester to start again) is reasonable. 

The implementation needs some refinement. 

Mel could gift dcfc another 50m in equity tomorrow without falling foul of any p&s

[Wolfie20]

29 minutes ago, falconram said:

If MM has overpaid for the stadium will the EFL give him a refund on the difference of the valuation to ours, I think not, this is going to get messy.

The other question you can start to ask is what about our manager , what a hand he has been dealt, will he want to stick around if we potentially start -12.

Errrrrr........yes, I'm sure he will

[MACKWORTHRAM]

56 minutes ago, Ted McMinn Football Genius said:

I think we have to accept that whether right or wrong the EFL are going to get their pound of flesh, one way or another be it a points deduction, a transfer embargo or a fine. 
I am hoping it’s a fine and we move on ??????

Who that issue is with I am unsure whether it’s the club or Mel (he has rubbed their noses in it over recent years ????) 

There appears to be a clear and obvious agenda to punish us and it appears to be more in an effort to save face than anything else.

But surely during the obvious uncertain times we all face right now the FFP (IMO) should be abolished to allow club owners to pump the much needed cash into their club to stay afloat (should they so wish).

The more I think about it the more I think we'll get a points deduction..

But then we'll go to the court of arbitration and appeal it. 

[Curtains]

I’ve said all along we will get a points deduction and then appeal but that could take over a year to sort out.  In the mean time we go into next season at a disadvantage. 

I really really hope I’ve been wrong all along. 

[Curtains]

2 minutes ago, Curtains said:

I’ve said all along we will get a points deduction and then appeal but that could take over a year to sort out.  In the mean time we go into next season at a disadvantage. 

I really really hope I’ve been wrong all along. 

PS I’ve also said all along FFP is poo 

[therealhantsram]

9 minutes ago, Curtains said:

I’ve said all along we will get a points deduction and then appeal but that could take over a year to sort out.  In the mean time we go into next season at a disadvantage. 

I really really hope I’ve been wrong all along. 

No, any penalty is suspended pending appeal.