Tribunal Update

[TigerTedd]

3 hours ago, Norman said:

Considering his stadium is a copy of ours, with the only difference being that it's on a desolate dockland site in a town where you would only live if you couldn't escape it.....

Means, by my calculations, using his formula, theirs is worth £2.53

Mel should swoop in and buy it too. Add it to his portfolio, stick a roof on it as well. 

[ramtique]

13 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Mr Messengers ‘comparable’ stadiums: Morecombe, Burton, Shrewsbury, Colchester, Chesterfield, Doncaster, Swansea, MK Dons

Maximum build cost per seat from any of those was just over £2k. Honeywill’s lowest was £3k. 

Historic valuations of Pride Park estimated over £4K per week. Views are anything less than £3k is equivalent to a basic stadium. With us having ‘close to Premier League standard facilities’, £3k is the absolute minimum which should be used for valuations*.

* Unless you’re called Mr Messenger, in which case £2k or less is fine. 

The decision from the hearing was a fair value range of £77.4m to £89.5m (£83.5m mid-point), indicating Mel actually under sold the stadium and missed out on up to £6m P&S profit. 

One feels that the only way this could have gone any more tits up for the EFL is if they’d sent along Melinda Messenger instead. Then again.....

[RadioactiveWaste]

2 minutes ago, ramtique said:

One feels that the only way this could have gone any more tits up for the EFL is if they’d sent along Melinda Messenger instead. Then again.....

Am I the only one who thinks Melinda Messenger would've thought "Right, if I'm to be an expert witness, I really need to approach this diligently and thoroughly to the highest professional standard, my reputation may he somewhere at stake if I do not"

[jono]

So you want a collection of classic cars valued. ? 

The insurers ask for authoritative detailed rationale behind the valuations from an informed source.

do you go to Sotheby’s or Christie’s or a Sage in the classic car industry ? 

Nooooo If you are the EFL you go to Messengers Autos of Grotborough who have  vast documented knowledge of Used Morris Marinas, having spent many years trading them back in the 1970’s. They even have some actual sale prices from the day, written on the back of a fag packet by Jeff who used to work in sales before he retired to run a pub in Tossa del Mar. 
 

Awesome professionalism from the EFL. Well done everyone 
 

 

 

 

[Carnero]

This charge and subsequent hearing sounds like some sort of comedy sketch from the very start.

What a bunch of incompetents we were having to deal with.

[Baj]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

I took his input to be showing that although the EFL had required their amortisation process to be 'systematic' there was actually no 'accounting basis' nor 'football basis' for what 'systematic' actually meant. Hence he finally fell back on a dictionary definition of the word - which the panel 'didn't find helpful'. Ie the EFL have required an amortisation process be based on something (systematic) that cannot be backed up by 'financial/accounting' definition.

The problem is with definitions, the dictionary says one thing and the EFL's defination of systematic also included Automatic, Hydromatic and Grease Lightnin'

[GrimsbyRam]

Being a solicitor (not this field), I was very interested to read the decision.  Having spent time digesting the 120 plus page document, I am not sure the EFL have anywhere to go to challenge this.  My observations as are follows:-

• A very thorough and well crafted judgment;
• It is noteworthy that every legal defence put forward was rejected;
• The EFL, notwithstanding the decision, must have been influenced by 'MFC' when looking at the recitals/undertakings, particularly in respect of damages;
• This came down to whether the EFL could prove wrongdoing on the balance of probabilities and we appear to have more balanced and respected experts in both surveying and amortisation.

It still remains desperately sad that MM allowed the situation to get to the point that the stadium had to be sold to comply with the FFP. The fact is without this sale, literally days before the deadline, we would now have been starting the season with minus point.

The soft embargo early last pre season clearly shows why we had trash like Dowell, Hamer and Paterson.

The positives to come from this must be that we are getting to a more realistic position wage wise and have shown that our youngsters generally have stepped up more than some of our 'seasoned' pros.

[ariotofmyown]

3 hours ago, SaintRam said:

 

Might be able to solve this riddle;

Turns out attendance matters; Steve Gibson's obviously unaware and thats why he thinks stadiums like his are worth nothing.

To be fair, Messenger did the attendance estimate bases on the 87th minute of games!

[Chester40]

Does retrospectively make me feel happier that it all goes in part to explain the depressing signings we made. Also makes me wonder how infuriated the EFL were about thr deal Rooney, looks even more creative on Mel's part in hindsight. 

[TigerTedd]

41 minutes ago, jono said:

So you want a collection of classic cars valued. ? 

The insurers ask for authoritative detailed rationale behind the valuations from an informed source.

do you go to Sotheby’s or Christie’s or a Sage in the classic car industry ? 

Nooooo If you are the EFL you go to Messengers Autos of Grotborough who have  vast documented knowledge of Used Morris Marinas, having spent many years trading them back in the 1970’s. They even have some actual sale prices from the day, written on the back of a fag packet by Jeff who used to work in sales before he retired to run a pub in Tossa del Mar. 
 

Awesome professionalism from the EFL. Well done everyone 
 

 

 

 

To be fair, maybe they new they were into a looser, and that the clubs of the championship would be having to fork out, so they went for the cheapest expert they could find.

if you think about it, they’ve really done the other teams in the league a bit of a favour here, by slipping 50 quid to a guy in the pub, rather than paying an actual professional. 

[May Contain Nuts]

Humanising him just makes me feel sorry for him and guilty about taking the piss. I'd rather have left his image to my imagination tbh

 

 

 

[Ramslaar]

27 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Does retrospectively make me feel happier that it all goes in part to explain the depressing signings we made. Also makes me wonder how infuriated the EFL were about thr deal Rooney, looks even more creative on Mel's part in hindsight. 

The rooney deal was part of something else of which was actually made by the EFL.

[ck-]

Anyone else spot the error in the panel’s calculations?

Paragraph 207 (b) has used the wrong value in its working out. Gets the right answer though, so doesn’t really matter. 

Just proving I really did read it all ?

[Ghost of Clough]

3 minutes ago, ck- said:

Anyone else spot the error in the panel’s calculations?

Paragraph 207 (b) has used the wrong value in its working out. Gets the right answer though, so doesn’t really matter. 

Just proving I really did read it all ?

I noticed and put it down to a copy and paste error. A couple of people didn’t proof read the document before publishing ?

[ariotofmyown]

14 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Humanising him just makes me feel sorry for him and guilty about taking the piss. I'd rather have left his image to my imagination tbh

 

 

 

The final nail in the coffin

[Shipley Ram]

1 hour ago, OohMartWright said:

As a Chartered Accountant and an accredited expert witness myself, I am flabbergasted by the “evidence” given by Mr Messenger. He appears to have broken the fundamental duty of any expert witness to produce impartial evidence to assist the court/tribunal and instead comes across as a simple “hired gun”. To omit a page of his own report because it weakened his client’s case is, at best, incompetent and, at worst, deception. Breathtaking.

As somone who sometimes uses expert witnesses I can say he would be heading for the do not use again list. The professor doesn't sound to clever either

Secondly, while we have no doubt that Professor Pope was at all times giving his genuinely-held opinion on the issues that he was asked to address, it became clear in his cross-examination that he was unfamiliar with the role and duties of an individual in his position tasked with giving expert to a Disciplinary Commission or other tribunal.

[Rev]

1 hour ago, reverendo de duivel said:

If anything, I'm more assured reading that summery!

We've not found little known wormholes to wriggle through, not relied on legal eagles to exhaust technical arguments, in short we've not resulted to the razzle dazzle to win the day.

Simple straight talking, making our case and picking apart the opposite argument in a clear and cohesive way has won the day.

MFC, as they're referred to, can GTFO.

If we win only two games next season, let's make it against the pube headed, parachute payment wasting, parmo loving, Pulis and Warnock employing moany little bitch who built his stadium with German steel at the expense of his supporter base, because it was cheaper.

Apologies for the misspelling of summary.

This warm weather has addled my brain.

[MaltRam]

51 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Does retrospectively make me feel happier that it all goes in part to explain the depressing signings we made. Also makes me wonder how infuriated the EFL were about thr deal Rooney, looks even more creative on Mel's part in hindsight. 

You'd think the EFL brand would only be enhanced by the presence of Wayne actual Rooney with an EFL badge on his shirt. 

You'd think the EFL would recognise that and be supportive of the move.

It would be like MLS griping about Beckham signing for the LA Galaxy.

Oh well.

 

[BramcoteRam84]

That was a long read!! I actually think the EFL will be slightly encouraged that our legal arguments failed, this mean if they have approved decisions and signed off accounts they are still within their rights to go back and re-evaluate as long as it’s within the 3 year period. 
 

However, the value of the stadium was legitimate and they agreed with our experts over the hapless/hopeless mr messenger who just isn’t credible. Steve Gibson’s valuation is probably credible as he would be factoring in the land registry probably pay you to build anything in Middlesbrough! 

As for the amortisation, the ambiguity around this seemed to actually hinder our case as no one grasped that despite flattening out the amortisation we still take the hit at the end of a players contract if he leaves for nothing. Must have been the steep amortisation in the final year of some contracts that contributed to the eye watering 18/19 loss of £38.8m. We really don’t have much wriggle room.
 

Can’t rule out the EFL trying to come back at us again on something else but as for these charges, I’d be amazed if they appeal especially with pressure mounting from clubs over legal costs. 
 

Will Steve Gibson launch his own legal challenge against the “Enemy of the EFL State” ?? still can’t believe Mel said that in the proceedings!! 

[alexxxxx]

Player amortisation bit sounded a bit weird as it sounds like they didn't have a good grasp on how the accounting actually worked (residual value at end of contract?) eh? 

Straight line amortisation id argue isnt right but perhaps derbys way has arguments against using it. Ultimately it isn't wrong. 

Sounds like efl need to  get some brains in to work this stuff out.