richinspain Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 hour ago, DCFC1388 said: Not sure why people are comparing our case to Sheff Weds, theirs is completely different. Theirs is down to them selling the stadium in one financial year and recording it in a different financial year, ours is purely based on its valuation Out of interest, how much did Wednesday sell their shed for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 22 minutes ago, richinspain said: Out of interest, how much did Wednesday sell their shed for? £60m, profit of £38m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brammie Steve Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 7 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said: Dutch, not Deutsch ? Ach! Ein visiten in der nighten von der gestadtpolizrei grammarai! Meine sprechen ist von Efleminge in der Nederlande und Belgique area.. Ein amalgum von Englische und Flemische. Mit eine kleine Deutsch gesthrowen in vur gutt mesuren. Zimples! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irobinson Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 6 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said: £60m, profit of £38m That is some cash for a dilapidated shed - state of the art stadium in 1966....ahem Based in the swanky part of Sheffield ahem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WystonRam Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 40 minutes ago, irobinson said: That is some cash for a dilapidated shed - state of the art stadium in 1966....ahem Based in the swanky part of Sheffield ahem Sheffield Wednesday’s is about how they accounted for the sale I think, not the valuation. They are alleged to have shown the sale in the accounts of the year prior to the actual sale ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 On 14/07/2020 at 19:32, bigbadbob said: We won't be relegated But don’t they decide when any deduction is applied .. so that it is damaging as a punishment ? i.e. if it’s at a point where it has no effect - end of season table position would be outside the relegation zone - then they move the deduction to the next season ? I don’t think we will get a deduction. There is too much of an indication that the EFL were on board with what we were doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, jono said: But don’t they decide when any deduction is applied .. so that it is damaging as a punishment ? i.e. if it’s at a point where it has no effect - end of season table position would be outside the relegation zone - then they move the deduction to the next season ? I don’t think we will get a deduction. There is too much of an indication that the EFL were on board with what we were doing I thought the only time they carry it into next season is if you’re already in the relegation zone on (lack of) merit and would have got relegated anyway. Otherwise, you’re re being extra punished based on the time the EFL conclude their procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, jono said: But don’t they decide when any deduction is applied .. so that it is damaging as a punishment ? i.e. if it’s at a point where it has no effect - end of season table position would be outside the relegation zone - then they move the deduction to the next season ? I don’t think we will get a deduction. There is too much of an indication that the EFL were on board with what we were doing If you go into admin you get the points deducted if you finish out side the bottom 3. If you're in the bottom 3 you get the deduction the following season. However, it's potentially different for failing P&S. All we know is that points should be deducted as early as possible in the season, so clubs know where they stand. There comes a point when it's too late to apply the deduction, however, this point hasn't been defined to the public. It could be before matchday 40, or it could be the point where it's impossible to recover the points deducted in the games remaining, or pretty much anything else. Your position in the league (top 6, midtable, bottom 3), should not have an impact on when the deduction takes place. Given we have 2 games remaining, with 1 or even 0 games remaining when a decision is made, i'm as certain as you can be that any deduction will occur next season. Wednesday will be pleased given a 12 point deduction moves them into the bottom 3, and considering their form since Christmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eatonram Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 TBH i almost think being relegated and starting the season with a level playing field is preferable to starting the season with a 12-21 point deduction, writing off that season and possibly then being relegated at the end of that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 23 minutes ago, Eatonram said: TBH i almost think being relegated and starting the season with a level playing field is preferable to starting the season with a 12-21 point deduction, writing off that season and possibly then being relegated at the end of that one. There's zero chance we'll have more than 12 points deducted as the mitigating factors (EFL ducking up) far outweigh the possible aggravating factors (the club hiding important information). If we get points deducted, so too will Wednesday. Wigan will also have 12 taken off them. Look at the revised table (Barnsley have game in hand). Barnsley need to get at least 7 points from their 3 games to move above us but have Leeds, Forest and Brentford to play... They'll finish below us. Luton play Hull... One of them will definitely finish below us. Wednesday and Wigan would have to win both of their games to move above us. I just can't see us getting relegated even if we did somehow get a points deduction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinspain Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 3 hours ago, wyschtonram said: Sheffield Wednesday’s is about how they accounted for the sale I think, not the valuation. They are alleged to have shown the sale in the accounts of the year prior to the actual sale ? Yes, I know that. I asked to be able to make some sort of comparison of price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarterForTen Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 If this matter rumbles on beyond the end of this season (which could be next Wednesday or, arguably, after the Play-Off Final on August 2nd) then any points penalty would be bound to be applied next season I reckon. It is not punishing an event that directly affected the current season so need not be applied this campaign for 'fairness' to other teams. The punishment would actually be for a historical breach in effect. Whether this whole episode can be wrapped up before early August I very much doubt, given the likely need to allow for an appeal. It has taken the parties months to get together for a hearing (has it actually started?) so a conclusion in a fortnight seems very optimistic. If we are found to have breached the rules and a points penalty is applied then we can look forward to seeing Derby at the bottom of the Championship table, for a few weeks at least, come September/October time. For what it is worth (which is very little as I do not know the facts), I think the Club will be found to have breached the rules, even if it is a technical breach in that the EFL's own advice to the Derby executive was wrong or flawed. I suspect that will not save us, though may well mitigate the punishment. It's a bit like an athlete found to have forbidden substances in his/her body, even if they were administered by an event doctor - they still get banned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animal is a Ram Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 17 minutes ago, StarterForTen said: <snip> It's a bit like an athlete found to have forbidden substances in his/her body, even if they were administered by an event doctor - they still get banned! It's more like an athlete that showed a substance in a previous test which wasn't forbidden at the time, and now is, and is now banned for it. The EFL had no problem with the valuation, other than a minor adjustment, and now they have decided they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 13 minutes ago, StarterForTen said: If this matter rumbles on beyond the end of this season (which could be next Wednesday or, arguably, after the Play-Off Final on August 2nd) then any points penalty would be bound to be applied next season I reckon. It is not punishing an event that directly affected the current season so need not be applied this campaign for 'fairness' to other teams. The punishment would actually be for a historical breach in effect. Whether this whole episode can be wrapped up before early August I very much doubt, given the likely need to allow for an appeal. It has taken the parties months to get together for a hearing (has it actually started?) so a conclusion in a fortnight seems very optimistic. Given the verdict will determine whether we need to restate past amortisation has a massive impact on our activity in the summer window due to how much we can afford to spend and remain within P&S limits. The hearing is this week, so we should have a verdict early next week. Come to think of it, I think if the verdict is to restate our historical amortisation, it could free up more cash to spend in the summer. A rough estimate suggests an extra £10-15m legroom in the P&S limits. We're moving outside of the period which includes the stadium sale, so that's of little significance going forward. 13 minutes ago, StarterForTen said: If we are found to have breached the rules and a points penalty is applied then we can look forward to seeing Derby at the bottom of the Championship table, for a few weeks at least, come September/October time. For what it is worth (which is very little as I do not know the facts), I think the Club will be found to have breached the rules, even if it is a technical breach in that the EFL's own advice to the Derby executive was wrong or flawed. I suspect that will not save us, though may well mitigate the punishment. What do you think we 're guilty of? Rules at the time said you can sell stadiums, and nothing to state which amortisation method to be used. 13 minutes ago, StarterForTen said: It's a bit like an athlete found to have forbidden substances in his/her body, even if they were administered by an event doctor - they still get banned! That's a bit different as it's clearly against the rules. What we did is more or less in the grey area, hence us asking the EFL if what we're doing is acceptable. A better comparison an olympice athelete asking IOC/WADA if they can use a drug,, them saying yes as it's not on the prohibited list. Then a few months later adding the drug to the prohibited list and saying that athlete cheated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarterForTen Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 14 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: What do you think we 're guilty of? Rules at the time said you can sell stadiums, and nothing to state which amortisation method to be used. As I mentioned, I do not know the facts as they will be laid out - as none of us do - so it is just as much a supposition as anyone else's! The picture that we have all been painting has been led largely from what the Club have put into the public domain and I sincerely hope that is the matter in full. But the fact that the EFL have brought the charge might suggest there is at least another side to consider. Few parties, however bullish or foolish, tend to pursue an obvious lost cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, StarterForTen said: Few parties, however bullish or foolish, tend to pursue an obvious lost cause. Except of course the EFL are making up the rules as they go along, so why not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, StarterForTen said: If this matter rumbles on beyond the end of this season (which could be next Wednesday or, arguably, after the Play-Off Final on August 2nd) then any points penalty would be bound to be applied next season I reckon. It is not punishing an event that directly affected the current season so need not be applied this campaign for 'fairness' to other teams. The punishment would actually be for a historical breach in effect. Whether this whole episode can be wrapped up before early August I very much doubt, given the likely need to allow for an appeal. It has taken the parties months to get together for a hearing (has it actually started?) so a conclusion in a fortnight seems very optimistic. If we are found to have breached the rules and a points penalty is applied then we can look forward to seeing Derby at the bottom of the Championship table, for a few weeks at least, come September/October time. For what it is worth (which is very little as I do not know the facts), I think the Club will be found to have breached the rules, even if it is a technical breach in that the EFL's own advice to the Derby executive was wrong or flawed. I suspect that will not save us, though may well mitigate the punishment. It's a bit like an athlete found to have forbidden substances in his/her body, even if they were administered by an event doctor - they still get banned! Depending on what the penalty is (fine, transfer ban as well as just a points deduction?) I wonder if Mel would be pragmatic, grit his teeth and just accept a points deduction provided it wasn't enough to see us relegated (which would of course make it a pretty worthless penalty). It's probably against his nature but might be better for the club than dragging it on and delaying a points deduction into next year. He could put a suitable spin on it by saying "the club did not accept it's done anything wrong but, in the interest of closing the matter and moving on we won't appeal". All sounds too easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 25 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Except of course the EFL are making up the rules as they go along, so why not! This is the most annoying thing about it all, the rules are applied as and when it suits them. QPR and Villa 2 examples of clubs who broke the rules massively and went onto beat us at Wembley. Forest also, how are they able to keep selling/signing players between 2 clubs owned by the same person to get around the pathetic PS/FFP rules? It will be interesting to see what action the EFL take against Villa, it should be a very simple case of finding them guilty of breaking the rules and a nice hefty points deduction, let's see if that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramslad1992 Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 48 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said: This is the most annoying thing about it all, the rules are applied as and when it suits them. QPR and Villa 2 examples of clubs who broke the rules massively and went onto beat us at Wembley. Forest also, how are they able to keep selling/signing players between 2 clubs owned by the same person to get around the pathetic PS/FFP rules? It will be interesting to see what action the EFL take against Villa, it should be a very simple case of finding them guilty of breaking the rules and a nice hefty points deduction, let's see if that happens. Could Mel buy a team like Matlock or something and send an under 18 there on loan for a £10m loan fee? If so why dont we just do that?! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 50 minutes ago, Ramslad1992 said: Could Mel buy a team like Matlock or something and send an under 18 there on loan for a £10m loan fee? If so why dont we just do that?! ? There honestly wouldnt be anything currently to stop Mel buying a club abroad and using it to service the Rams. Apart from money and time of course. There is nothing to stop Olympiakos from signing Forests star player for 20 million and then loaning him back to Forest for a year at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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