RoyMac5 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said: Are you certain that a) this is a squad brimful of talent waiting for someone else to ignite a playoff push & b) Cocu wont get it right (given his previous record)? What have you seen of Cocu at Derby that makes you so certain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SFD1968 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 Reluctantly Out... I appreciate that any new manager needs time to bed in and get his style of play across, but 17th in the table at the halfway point of the season is (in my opinion at least) not acceptable. Were we going to be challenging for the title? I honestly couldn't say, and it's pretty obvious that we're missing the touches of Mount, Wilson and Tomori and the injury list is a concern, but we should be better than 17th. So either he's lost the dressing room, or he's been hyped up to be better than he actually is. If he's given the rest of the season, he'd better make sure that we don't get relegated, or he's certainly going to sent back to the Netherlands with his P45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 Just now, RoyMac5 said: What have you seen of Cocu at Derby that makes you so certain? He's calm, he believes in good technical football (Martin back, rates Huddlestone), hes passionate about promoting youth (Forest away prime example). All things I want in a Derby manager. We have this debate most years Roy. We both want the same thing..that is a Derby team going the right way. Difference is an appreciation of how long these rebuilds can take & make no mistake, this is a rebuild...both talentwise and attitude-wise. Looking at our 4 most successful postwar managers (Clough, Mackay, Cox and Smith) all bar Mackay inherited poor teams & needed time to adjust and rebuild. Took Clough over a year, Smith 5 months & Cox over a year. Your question references his time with us but his record at PSV is relevant to this. He has done this before, I believe he'll do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BondJovi Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: What have you seen of Cocu at Derby that makes you so certain? Nothing makes me certain. But I am certain that we are desperate for stability. And the context is that Cocu is here for a long term project. Why do we think we will see gradual improvement? It does not always work that way. Our performance today was our best away for ages. The players clearly put in the fight and effort, just lacked the quality. Our away form was poor before Cocu got here, he really hasn't had the tools to improve matters. I will make a fair judgement on Cocu when I believe he has been given a fair shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said: He's calm, he believes in good technical football (Martin back, rates Huddlestone), hes passionate about promoting youth (Forest away prime example). All things I want in a Derby manager. We have this debate most years Roy. We both want the same thing..that is a Derby team going the right way. Difference is an appreciation of how long these rebuilds can take & make no mistake, this is a rebuild...both talentwise and attitude-wise. ... Your question references his time with us but his record at PSV is relevant to this. He has done this before, I believe he'll do it again. It's nothing to do with how long a rebuild takes. This is about is he the right manager to do the rebuild. What you've seen from his time at Derby and the Championship is much to go on at is it. Good technical football but he prefers Waghorn. Passionate about promoting youth but gave the experience to Dowell in preference to Knight or Sibley. All things? What about his constant chopping and changing Lowe/Malone for one. His attitude of preferring to 'not conceed' rather than score more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stedcfc Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 I’ve always been in the Cocu in camp and want to give him at least 18 months, but patience is running thin. As much as we need stability that doesn’t mean we can blindly keep the manager regardless of what’s going on on the pitch. At the moment he’s not quite doing enough to “earn” his time for me. We’re not good enough for the play offs but we shouldn’t be close to the relegation zone and especially with such boring terrible football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 17 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: It's nothing to do with how long a rebuild takes. This is about is he the right manager to do the rebuild. What you've seen from his time at Derby and the Championship is much to go on at is it. Good technical football but he prefers Waghorn. Passionate about promoting youth but gave the experience to Dowell in preference to Knight or Sibley. All things? What about his constant chopping and changing Lowe/Malone for one. His attitude of preferring to 'not conceed' rather than score more? And his time at PSV indicates yes, he is the manager to do the rebuild. Look, we need someone to do it & if we're being honest, any manager undertaking that task will have periods of poor form & incidences where their competency is questioned by some of the fanbase. I believe we're at one of those points now. He doesnt prefer Waghorn, he starts Martin at 9...today was a different situation based on playing with 10 men. Dowell has performed at a high level in this division at times with Forest.not unreasonable for him to get chances although I accept it's not worked out overall. My take is that he probably needs to be bolder with youth & I agree with your Malone/Lowe point. Great to see Knight growing as a player, let's get the others in & have a free hit at this season. The caveat being as fans we have to have the necessary patience to see the experiment through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 Still in ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jourdan Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 29 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said: Can't dispute those stats but what your post is missing is context. The international players we've lost, the Keogh saga, the injuries and the long needed squad overhaul, which Rowett's short termism & Lampard's loans papered over. I had you down as a bit of a progressive so bit surprised by how adamant you are about wanting a change. Are you certain that a) this is a squad brimful of talent waiting for someone else to ignite a playoff push & b) Cocu wont get it right (given his previous record)? You’re right. Usually I am not someone who calls for a manager’s head so openly and so profusely. I think the last manager I genuinely wanted out was Clough, feeling he had taken us as far as he could. This was back in 2011. I even defended Nigel Pearson during his short spell here. I am not against Cocu. I think he is a good manager. But sometimes good managers take the wrong jobs. And everything that could go wrong for Cocu has. I just don’t feel his record as a top manager in the Eredivisie holds much weight in what is now looking like a slog for Championship survival. The quality of the squad is debatable. Do I think 17th is the best we can achieve with this squad? I don’t think it is. If fairly ordinary teams like Preston, Swansea and Sheffield Wednesday can be in the mix, it has to be down to poor management that we find ourselves so far off the running. We are even 7 points off the top half. Maybe he could turn it around given time, but to me this looks to be only heading one way. It has seemed like that for a good few weeks now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 1 minute ago, LeedsCityRam said: My take is that he probably needs to be bolder with youth & I agree with your Malone/Lowe point. Great to see Knight growing as a player, let's get the others in & have a free hit at this season. The caveat being as fans we have to have the necessary patience to see the experiment through. For that to happen he has to give them evidence he is the right man here. Mostly all we get is excuses why he isn't showing anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derbydaz22 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 28 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said: He's calm, he believes in good technical football (Martin back, rates Huddlestone), hes passionate about promoting youth (Forest away prime example). All things I want in a Derby manager. We have this debate most years Roy. We both want the same thing..that is a Derby team going the right way. Difference is an appreciation of how long these rebuilds can take & make no mistake, this is a rebuild...both talentwise and attitude-wise. Looking at our 4 most successful postwar managers (Clough, Mackay, Cox and Smith) all bar Mackay inherited poor teams & needed time to adjust and rebuild. Took Clough over a year, Smith 5 months & Cox over a year. Your question references his time with us but his record at PSV is relevant to this. He has done this before, I believe he'll do it again. Spot on Cox inherited a club on its knees in the 3rd tier and I think we finished 8th and if we had the internet then people would have been clamouring for change and the usual we are a big club in the 3rd Division etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 Can we put up a new poll? it's been like zero victories and zero goals since the first post went up. I'm interested to know if the current ratio of in/out has changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jourdan said: You’re right. Usually I am not someone who calls for a manager’s head so openly and so profusely. I think the last manager I genuinely wanted out was Clough, feeling he had taken us as far as he could. This was back in 2011. I even defended Nigel Pearson during his short spell here. I am not against Cocu. I think he is a good manager. But sometimes good managers take the wrong jobs. And everything that could go wrong for Cocu has. I just don’t feel his record as a top manager in the Eredivisie holds much weight in what is now looking like a slog for Championship survival. The quality of the squad is debatable. Do I think 17th is the best we can achieve with this squad? I don’t think it is. If fairly ordinary teams like Preston, Swansea and Sheffield Wednesday can be in the mix, it has to be down to poor management that we find ourselves so far off the running. We are even 7 points off the top half. Maybe he could turn it around given time, but to me this looks to be only heading one way. It has seemed like that for a good few weeks now. Good post. I was also one of the few who defended Pearson! Mainly as Leicester fans warned us it'd be weird initially before it clicked. Just on the highlighted bit, what position would you expect of this squad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 10 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: For that to happen he has to give them evidence he is the right man here. Mostly all we get is excuses why he isn't showing anything. Excuses in your eyes (you're wrong) Perfectly valid and major reasons in other people's (they're right) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 One thing is for sure with Cocu he has most certainly given playing opportunities to nearly all his options available! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Coconut said: Excuses in your eyes (you're wrong) Perfectly valid and major reasons in other people's (they're right) Whatever, he's still not showing enough imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeedsCityRam Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: For that to happen he has to give them evidence he is the right man here. Mostly all we get is excuses why he isn't showing anything. Honest question..did you see Cox's and Smith's teams clicking before they actually did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Contain Nuts Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 Just now, RoyMac5 said: Whatever, he's still not showing enough imo. All will be revealed in time Roy, all will be revealed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 Just now, LeedsCityRam said: Honest question..did you see Cox's and Smith's teams clicking before they actually did? Gosh I can hardly remember that far back. I seem to remember thinking Jim hit lucky with his 'four up front' was it? I thought Billy knew what he was doing in building a team (which he oddly tried to spoil in the Jan window), but didn't know how odd our Billy was! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whoneedshuls Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 Give him time love to see what he does with a full transfer window now he’s seen how pathetic some of these players can be Rooney playing in the side will give the team a lift and I feel we’ll get better with a few more additions and some of the deadwood gone.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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