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[Ghost of Clough]

55 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Nicklas Bendtner got fined more for wearing Paddy Power boxer shorts.

Incorrect... He got fined for impersonating a footballer.

[Ghost of Clough]

54 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Mel has been in charge for 4/5 years now?

I think now is the time that his investment in the academy will start paying dividends. 

The signs are good.

Now the decision has to be whether we keep our best academy players or sell them to balance the books.

It takes at least 10 years to gain the full rewards of investment in the academy ,given that's how long it takes for the youngest age group to reach the front end of the academy.
We're only just starting to see the impact of from when Clough and Wassall first joined the club. We still have another 5 years until we see the full impact from Mel's time at the club.

Look at it in terms academy players age groups (y.o.b.)...

1990: Greg Mills, Simmons
1991: Severn
1992: Hendrick, Connolly, Ball, O'Brien
1993: Morch
1994: Lelan, Galinski
1995: Hughes, Hanson
1996: Bennett, Guy, Rawson, Vernam
1997: Lowe, Zanzala, MacDonald
1998: Babos, Stabana, Wassall
1999: JML, Cresswell, Hunt
2000: Bogle, Bird, Minkley, 
2001: Knight, Whittaker, Buchanan, Cashin, Stretton, Sibley
2002: Tyree Wilson, Archie Brown, Thompson, Matthews

The academy seems to be producing more players with a higher potential now. This is highlighted by the first 5 age groups - only Hendrick is of Championship quality or higher. 

[GenBr]

3 hours ago, Squid said:

We've had some of the most entertaining years under Mel's ownership.

We've built a fantastic academy in which we will soon see some top players come through (Can name a couple already, Knight, Whittaker, Sibley)

We would be in poo creek if it wasn't for the genius of his ways around FFP.

I could go on but how anyone can think Mel's not done a good job is mindboggling.

I would agree that i think Mel has been good for the club. Reaching the playoffs on 3 occassions is a success for me. As is the progress seen in the academy

However the only reason we would have been up poo creek from an FFP perspective is down to the spending sanctioned by him. I dont really think you can use his "genius of getting round FFP" as a sign of his success. Whilst i greatly dislike FFP it would have been the clubs own fault if we'd breached it. We certainly shouldnt have had to sell the stadium to keep ourselves within the rules.

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

13 minutes ago, GenBr said:

I would agree that i think Mel has been good for the club. Reaching the playoffs on 3 occassions is a success for me. As is the progress seen in the academy

However the only reason we would have been up poo creek from an FFP perspective is down to the spending sanctioned by him. I dont really think you can use his "genius of getting round FFP" as a sign of his success. Whilst i greatly dislike FFP it would have been the clubs own fault if we'd breached it. We certainly shouldnt have had to sell the stadium to keep ourselves within the rules.

This is true. On the other hand, he did back former managers with money to spend on players. Not sure all the managers had final say on signings but at least he did fund transfers. Unfortunately, with hindsight we wasted a lot of money on players who didn’t quite work out for us. 

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

14 minutes ago, GenBr said:

I would agree that i think Mel has been good for the club. Reaching the playoffs on 3 occassions is a success for me. As is the progress seen in the academy

However the only reason we would have been up poo creek from an FFP perspective is down to the spending sanctioned by him. I dont really think you can use his "genius of getting round FFP" as a sign of his success. Whilst i greatly dislike FFP it would have been the clubs own fault if we'd breached it. We certainly shouldnt have had to sell the stadium to keep ourselves within the rules.

Imagine the learning curve Mel has had to go through. One thing he will have done is learn from any mistakes and I don't think he will make the same ones again. 

Whatever happens, Mel is a DCFC legend, success or failure, everything he has done is for the club and not him. You can't blame him for having to learn on the job and perhaps change his normal business way of thinking.

One thing for sure is that its exciting to be a Derby supporter and having Wayne Rooney even consider a move to Derby should be unheard of whilst in the Championship. He's here though and that tells me something exciting is about to happen.

[GenBr]

4 minutes ago, Theres’s Only Wan Chope said:

This is true. On the other hand, he did back former managers with money to spend on players. Not sure all the managers had final say on signings but at least he did fund transfers. Unfortunately, with hindsight we wasted a lot of money on players who didn’t quite work out for us. 

Dont get me wrong. Its great that he backed managers, but the FFP limitations are very clear (in this matter at least). Its not like we didnt know how much we could spend and we still spent well over the allowed amount. We were fortunate that the EFL decided to take the line about selling stadiums out of the FFP rules a couple years earlier.

[Ghost of Clough]

3 hours ago, AdamRam said:

All well and good, but it’s not a successful model yet. Where is this big number of players that are coming through to the first team ?
 

Other than Bogle, no one as yet has broken into the first team, yes under teams are doing great however none of them are getting into a team that is in the lower reaches of the second division of the England leagues.

Sibley, Whittaker, Buchanan, Knight, JML, Bird, Bogle, Lowe, Hanson, Guy, Gordon, K Thomas and Vernam have all made debuts since Mel first bought into the club (not including players bought in to play for the U23s ie Elsnik, Thomas...)

Of those, Bogle and Lowe are first team players. Knight and Whittaker have emerged as squad players, with Buchanan, Sibley and Bird close to becoming squad players. JML isn't far off either.
Hanson, Guy, Gordon, Thomas and Vernam are all playing in the football league.

On the field, we've gone from an average Cat 2 team to Champions of U23 Div 2 in 15/16, and now challenging for top spot. We were the best U18 side in the country last year, winning the league. That sounds successful to me.

[AdamRam]

18 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Sibley, Whittaker, Buchanan, Knight, JML, Bird, Bogle, Lowe, Hanson, Guy, Gordon, K Thomas and Vernam have all made debuts since Mel first bought into the club (not including players bought in to play for the U23s ie Elsnik, Thomas...)

Of those, Bogle and Lowe are first team players. Knight and Whittaker have emerged as squad players, with Buchanan, Sibley and Bird close to becoming squad players. JML isn't far off either.
Hanson, Guy, Gordon, Thomas and Vernam are all playing in the football league.

On the field, we've gone from an average Cat 2 team to Champions of U23 Div 2 in 15/16, and now challenging for top spot. We were the best U18 side in the country last year, winning the league. That sounds successful to me.

And all of those who have made a debut are currently still in the U23, none have made the step up yet hence why we have spent c8m on a DM and brought in players on loan.
 

Max Lowe you say ? Was he not at the club before Mel joined ?

So you are saying that going from a third placed team to one that is struggling in the lower reaches however as we are doing well in the academy teams is judged as a success.

 

[KCG]

6 hours ago, Spanish said:

fulham?

But WBA have been the yoyo club for a lot longer, 10 years?

[Spanish]

6 minutes ago, KCG said:

But WBA have been the yoyo club for a lot longer, 10 years?

both examples of how it could work.  TBF I would have hoped that WBA would have become a more established part of the prem by now.

[Spanish]

3 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It takes at least 10 years to gain the full rewards of investment in the academy ,given that's how long it takes for the youngest age group to reach the front end of the academy.
We're only just starting to see the impact of from when Clough and Wassall first joined the club. We still have another 5 years until we see the full impact from Mel's time at the club.

Look at it in terms academy players age groups (y.o.b.)...

1990: Greg Mills, Simmons
1991: Severn
1992: Hendrick, Connolly, Ball, O'Brien
1993: Morch
1994: Lelan, Galinski
1995: Hughes, Hanson
1996: Bennett, Guy, Rawson, Vernam
1997: Lowe, Zanzala, MacDonald
1998: Babos, Stabana, Wassall
1999: JML, Cresswell, Hunt
2000: Bogle, Bird, Minkley, 
2001: Knight, Whittaker, Buchanan, Cashin, Stretton, Sibley
2002: Tyree Wilson, Archie Brown, Thompson, Matthews

The academy seems to be producing more players with a higher potential now. This is highlighted by the first 5 age groups - only Hendrick is of Championship quality or higher. 

I agree, by any measure we have one of the best in the uk, maybe Europe as well.  Something to be proud of.  What  I don't know is how this is converted to success.  How many of these kids can carry forward their potential, how many can we keep away from other clubs, how many that we want to sell achieve a significant price?  I don't think a great academy guarantees senior success and, I will be honest, I don't know enough about the experiences further afield.  I believe Ajax have had a great academy for many years but it is only recently that they have come in from the wilderness. 

Honest question, are there solid examples of academies translating success to the seniors?

[Mucker1884]

6 hours ago, CHCDerby said:

You don't improve the academy and the following week you start producing and selling players for millions. But, our academy is now showing good signs of bringing a big number of players through to either first team or to sell on for profit. 

I think Mel could bring Champions League football to Derby and some supporters wouldn't be happy until they'd won it. We could get promoted this season and finish top half next season, but, some supporters would deem it as just an OK season because if we hadn't drawn so many games, we'd have made top 4. 

 

6 hours ago, Spanish said:

dare say you will find fester fans moaning in the last few seasons and man city ones now.  It comes with the territory for some reason.  The moaners do tend to believe they are the fountain of all knowledge as it relates to football

There's a fine line between moaning about "not achieving enough", and being seen as fans with a "small club attitude".

Should we be happy with 12th, when 11th is better?  Should we be happy with euro qualification, when there is a trophy to be won?

I'm drinking the devils advocaat here, and of course as we stand right now, promotion would be fantastic.  It goes without saying that surviving (in the prem) by one point is currently a dream, never mind mid table, but once that is achieved, the hope, the expectation, and the ambition rises rapidly.

It was a delight to reach the play offs last season... but it was a minimum target in my opinion, given what we had "achieved" in previous seasons... and ultimately, we are now no better off.  As good as the past 5 or 6 seasons have been, (on the whole), we've achieved absolutely nothing.

Whilst that is of course preferable to getting worse/going down, it's not as good as "year on year improvement".

Maybe it's time for some of us to moan a little louder?

 

[richinspain]

 Amongst several things Mel said at the time of his famous "Derby Way" comments was that he wanted steady progression, and as a result of that a successful Premier League club. Some of the blame has to be at Mel's door because he chose/approved the managers that followed Mac I, however many if not all of those managers have let him down. Personal ambition, possibly false promises, or just ineptness, have been the downfall of that Derby Way. Maybe Mel has given Cocu instructions to bring it back, and maybe Cocu is prepared to achieve it without looking out for his personal gain first?

 The word transition has been used many times, by myself included, and there are some supporters that don't want transition but instant success at any cost. I don't know if this is really a year of transition or just slightly disappointing. What I do hope is that it is the start of the Derby Way, that the club will progress (quickly if possible, steadily if not). I also hope that any new investor is also on the same page as Mel and Cocu, and not another Paul Clement making promises of progression but really wanting instant returns on his investment.

 The Derby Way has been ridiculed and used as a means of having cheap digs at the club and at Mel. I personally would love to see the return of it. I think that Mel deserves the return of it for all that has happened on and off the field since he took over. What I most hope for his sake is that any new investor sees his vision and shares it, because in the long run it will make both of them more money.

[ossieram]

Has he signed yet?

[angieram]

I am interested when reading discussions about investment in how little it is acknowledged that we have been playing an unfair game with constantly moving goalposts over the years that Mel has been in charge.

If you look at the first season of the current era of near successes, 2013 - 2014, we were competing against clubs receiving parachute payments of merely £10.5 million. A season later these payments had increased to £20.8 million and now top a whopping £42.6 million.

This has had the effect of inflating transfer fees to the extent that a "Barker type fee" became a "Johnson type fee" and now a "Bielik type fee". There's no way we would have been paying that type of price for a promising 21 year old five years ago.

This expenditure raises fans' expectations of how good the players are going to be and they get disappointed when they aren't immediately world beaters.

Even more telling, I feel, is the fact that clubs with three years parachute payments of this magnitude can afford to offer lucrative contracts on much higher salaries than we can manage.

We tried to do it for a while, got badly stung in the process and have now reset to a more sensible approach. Unfortunately some fans have not reset alongside the club, and dissatisfaction is the outcome.

All along this process Mel has found innovative ways to maximise income, some of which have come under very close scrutiny. I feel he is doing everything he can to keep us competitive while he waits for the academy to bear fruit.  The fact that we have sold one or two of the lesser known academy players for fees in recent seasons is promising but the ultimate aim is to reap the rewards ourselves. 

I think we will but we need to be patient. The most talented ones are still very young and we can only introduce one or two at a time.

As @richinspain says, this is the Derby way that Mel has talked about over the years. I hope that this time it succeeds.

[Ramslaar]

4 hours ago, Spanish said:

I agree, by any measure we have one of the best in the uk, maybe Europe as well.  Something to be proud of.  What  I don't know is how this is converted to success.  How many of these kids can carry forward their potential, how many can we keep away from other clubs, how many that we want to sell achieve a significant price?  I don't think a great academy guarantees senior success and, I will be honest, I don't know enough about the experiences further afield.  I believe Ajax have had a great academy for many years but it is only recently that they have come in from the wilderness. 

Honest question, are there solid examples of academies translating success to the seniors?

I do agree with all that you say but i believe we have been trying for a better academy for a different reason and that is to make money look at Southampton.if you can produce x1 15mil player every 1-2 season that is what will keep you out of FFP and fund the purchase of more quality this then allows you to build with very little spend from the owner.thats my take anyway.

[Ghost of Clough]

5 hours ago, AdamRam said:

And all of those who have made a debut are currently still in the U23, none have made the step up yet hence why we have spent c8m on a DM and brought in players on loan.
 

Max Lowe you say ? Was he not at the club before Mel joined ?

So you are saying that going from a third placed team to one that is struggling in the lower reaches however as we are doing well in the academy teams is judged as a success.

 

What’s your point? I think players like Sibley and even Cybulski were at the club before Mel took over!

You can’t say the academy isn’t successful because the first team finished 3rd a few years ago without finishing higher since 

[AdamRam]

10 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

What’s your point? I think players like Sibley and even Cybulski were at the club before Mel took over!

You can’t say the academy isn’t successful because the first team finished 3rd a few years ago without finishing higher since 

When have I said the academy isn’t successful ? I’m saying Mels tenure at Derby based on ROI / success on the pitch hasn’t yet been proven to be a success.

The academy is an infrastructure put in by MM that he hopes in the future will bring on the two criteria above, as yet that is not the case.

[Ghost of Clough]

10 hours ago, CHCDerby said:

You don't improve the academy and the following week you start producing and selling players for millions. But, our academy is now showing good signs of bringing a big number of players through to either first team or to sell on for profit. 

I think Mel could bring Champions League football to Derby and some supporters wouldn't be happy until they'd won it. We could get promoted this season and finish top half next season, but, some supporters would deem it as just an OK season because if we hadn't drawn so many games, we'd have made top 4. 

 

10 hours ago, AdamRam said:

All well and good, but it’s not a successful model yet. Where is this big number of players that are coming through to the first team ?
 

Other than Bogle, no one as yet has broken into the first team, yes under teams are doing great however none of them are getting into a team that is in the lower reaches of the second division of the England leagues.

Its not about “some supporters” not being happy as you put it, you just don’t like someone pointing out the facts.  To date Mel has put in c100 million quid into a football club with a team that has is not as good as the one that took over, and is now having to go cap in hand looking for investors to carry on his project.
 

That for me is not what I would call a success, a year, two or 5 down line when we have gained promotion or our youth academy has produced players that are regularly playing or have been moved on for a hefty profit then I’d totally agree, but as at today, it’s not been successful. I’d also say that Mel would also say it hasn’t to date either.

 

 

2 minutes ago, AdamRam said:

When have I said the academy isn’t successful ? I’m saying Mels tenure at Derby based on ROI / success on the pitch hasn’t yet been proven to be a success.

The academy is an infrastructure put in by MM that he hopes in the future will bring on the two criteria above, as yet that is not the case.

You suggested it in your reply to @CHCDerby    

[RamNut]

6 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Hanson, Guy, Gordon, Thomas and Vernam are all playing in the football league.

Doesn't Seem very relevant.

what was the cost of developing them v the income received in transfer fees?

Apart from Hanson, who doesn’t currently make the first team at Oxford, they all went for nothing didn’t they?