Cocu up to now

[Warren Hobhead]

9 hours ago, Andicis said:

We made our record signing this summer and also signed Wayne Rooney? Not even getting into the rest of the debate, because I can't be bothered, but I do think that's an objectively false statement.

This.

We made nothing in player sales and broke our own record to buy a player whilst we will soon be employing a close to retirement Rooney in what is clearly a marketing ploy rather than a football decision.

Ive nothing against Cocu and admire him involving these younger players. But I am absolutely baffled by our continual failure to recruit quality central midfielders.

[Bubbles]

12 hours ago, Floppy Sausage said:

Yeah but had Norwich not just been promoted from league 1? Bit different to taking on a team expected to challenge each season. Norwich weren’t expected to do anything. Every so often you get a Burnley, a Norwich, a Hull etc. We need consistency, not just hoping for a freak season where everything just clicks.

No. they was last in L1 in 09-10.

[S8TY]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

Who is judging? I'm just asking questions - you don't think that Mel will have thought these things too? Or did he just stick a pin in the managers handbook!

You are....you're saying all you can go on is what you see on the pitch and by the league table and saying he's proved nothing in English Football thats not questioning it as you put it  its a fact and if he'd won every game so far would still apply so its not a question is it ? as its too early to judge....thats the point!

The league table is in its infancy and Norwich and plenty of other teams have been in a worse position than us and yet made it to the premiership...Mel in my view has worked wonders to get a manager of Cocu's calibre to be our manager and the last thing we need is fans getting impatient after a handful of games......who exactly would you want as manager ?? 

[atherstoneram]

In addition to what i posted earlier

I wonder if that, after all transfer windows have closed whether Cocu takes a look at who is a free agent and brings someone in on a short term deal until the end of the season,he will now or should have formed an opinion of which senior players are not capable of playing to his required level and some of the youngsters aren't quite there yet to cover positions on which we are struggling with and needs covering this season. I am sure he sees that not everything is rosy at the moment or developing as he thought and is hindering the plans he has in place.

[RamNut]

The summer transfer business - or lack of - is the issue.

midfield creativity was the priority to address in the summer

shinnie, bielik, dowell, paterson.....is not really ticking the boxes.

The rooney thing just seems like a bad fit. Hope i'm wrong.

The trip to Florida took us well away from the transfer activity at home at a time when we'd already missed the first month of the transfer window whilst waiting for Frank to finish his Croque Monsieur.  obviously Cocu had had little or no time to assess his squad, and wouldn't have been particularly well informed regarding the merits of available players. Every good manager needs a good scout, and as far as i'm aware, he hasn't brought one. Burley achieved miracles because of the scout he brought. Same with Arthur and Jim etc etc. Recruitment is still our weakness. We seem to put all of our faith in the academy. It was too soon to worry about blocking the progression of bird and sibley and therefore limiting ourselves to the loan market. I remain puzzled by the decision to part company with thomas and elsnik. At one time they seemed likely to be the next models about to roll off the production line.

Although Knight looks like a real find, we still seem a bit short in central and wide midfield positions.

It is what it is. We haven't got the luxury of strength in depth and therefore we have limited ability to rotate without seriously weakening the team. Thats why we got stuffed at forest (not helped by seeming to place malone and martin on gardening leave).

unfortunately that defeat was a totally predictable and unnecessary self-inflicted wound which has soured the mood of a few. It seems like managerial naivety and a missed opportunity. Others will disagree. no-one will convince me of the merits of that team selection. But its gone now.

onwards and hopefully upwards.

 

 

 

 

[Edtheram]

I think Cocu should be given a free hit this season to sort the problems out and try his best to set in stone a style players and fans alike buy into. I am concerned that whenever the word "youth" or "academy" is mentioned most supporters wet there pants. Im all for bringing through youth but only the players who are good enough. Knight, Sibley i can safely say have a future in the game at this level, Buchanan divides opinion for me at this stage. I dont think Bird will be in the championship hes no better than who we have and is very similar to Butterfield in that he goes back and sideways with his passing, Whittaker and Lawson arnt ready either. i want him to bring youth into the team when they prove that they can play at this level, how many youth players do we expect to come through at once usually it is max 2 out of 25+. Sometimes i feel like we watch them have a good game for the U23s and brandish them as the new Hughes or think they have the attacking ability of Mbappe. What im trying to say is, Cocu can integrate youth all he likes but this season shouldn't just be a throwaway youth trial, Only play who is capeable of providing for the team.

[Millenniumram]

I personally think cocu has the managerial ability to get a team playing far better than we have been doing so far. I can see what he’s trying to achieve in terms of a possession game, but he really lacks the personnel to properly implement it effectively. Too many of our players give the ball away cheaply, and honestly I don’t think I’ve seen a less exciting attack since the early clough days. There’s literally no creativity at all there. The midfield and wings are lower midtable at best imo. 

In effect, he’s been shafted by the failure of our recruitment team once again to fix the glaring holes in our team. In all honesty, whoever’s been doing our transfers for the past few years is stealing a living. I said at the end of the window that it had been a disaster and I got pelters for it... well I’ve already seen a few moving across to that viewpoint, and I’d wager as the season progresses, more will follow. We’ve put far too much weight on the shoulders of 17/18 year olds to suddenly become the saviours- it’s all well and good saying we’re trying not to block their pathway, but putting them into roles they’re not ready for does not help their development whatsoever. In fact it hinders it. We shouldn’t be worried about leaving a pathway open so much, obvioulsy we don’t want a 40 man squad like forest cause they’ll never get a chance, but a reasonable size first team squad will still lead to youth getting chances, and if they’re ready they’ll take them. Simple as. I think we’ve left ourselves threadbare of players capable of playing at this level and it’s forcing us to use youth players who simply aren’t ready yet.

[RoyMac5]

59 minutes ago, Saity said:

You are....you're saying all you can go on is what you see on the pitch and by the league table and saying he's proved nothing in English Football thats not questioning it as you put it  its a fact and if he'd won every game so far would still apply so its not a question is it ? as its too early to judge....thats the point!

The league table is in its infancy and Norwich and plenty of other teams have been in a worse position than us and yet made it to the premiership...Mel in my view has worked wonders to get a manager of Cocu's calibre to be our manager and the last thing we need is fans getting impatient after a handful of games......who exactly would you want as manager ?? 

My goodness you seem to be able to take a few sentences and weave a fantastic tale out of them. ?

All I can go on is what I see on the pitch and the league table - what is wrong with that? I'm not privy to Mel and Cocus meetings, nor the training ground talks, etc, etc. What are you judging on.

[Ghost of Clough]

32 minutes ago, Edtheram said:

I think Cocu should be given a free hit this season to sort the problems out and try his best to set in stone a style players and fans alike buy into. I am concerned that whenever the word "youth" or "academy" is mentioned most supporters wet there pants. Im all for bringing through youth but only the players who are good enough. Knight, Sibley i can safely say have a future in the game at this level, Buchanan divides opinion for me at this stage. I dont think Bird will be in the championship hes no better than who we have and is very similar to Butterfield in that he goes back and sideways with his passing,

No better than what we have... by that you mean top end Championship DMs. Well he'd be a truly talented 18 year old if he was better than a seasoned pro who helped us reach the playoff final last season, and a £7.5m player who was a standout performer in a side who earned promotion to the Championship.

Buchanan has been utilised a lot sooner than planned due to our RB crisis and Malone out of form. 3 games in the first team and he was up against two of the best wingers in the division for two of them.

Quote

Whittaker and Lawson arnt ready either. i want him to bring youth into the team when they prove that they can play at this level

And how do you do that? You give them games in the team. A few examples being Hughes, Hendrick and Bogle. Thrown straight into the first team, did well, and became regulars. Others such as Ball, O'Brien, etc were given chances, didn't quite make the grade and were sold/released. Same sort of thing for those who go out on loan.

Quote

how many youth players do we expect to come through at once usually it is max 2 out of 25+. Sometimes i feel like we watch them have a good game for the U23s and brandish them as the new Hughes or think they have the attacking ability of Mbappe.

Bogle was introduced last season - so too was Bird to a lesser extent. Bennett and Lowe were before that. Knight looks to be a good bet for this season with the others (Buchanan, Sibley, Mitchell-Lawson, Whittaker) acting as emergency backup in case of injuries or bad form, but maybe breaking through next season instead. It's also unlikely we'll see more than two on the field at a time in the league.

Quote

What im trying to say is, Cocu can integrate youth all he likes but this season shouldn't just be a throwaway youth trial, Only play who is capeable of providing for the team.

In the league so far (the games which matter most), we've only seen Knight and Buchanan step up. The former has impressed in his 4 appearances and the latter was rewarded for a great performance in the cup and benefited from Malone's bad form. Cocu seems to have made the correct call in the league games in terms of integrated youth, but a bit extreme in the two cup games.

[angieram]

Didn't Bogle make his first team debut away at Oldham this time last year? And weren't many people calling for him to be dropped 'for his own sake' over the course of many matches that side of Christmas 2018?

It's funny how he's now one of the three players that have been deemed indispensable to our success. A lot of weight for a young pair of shoulders to carry and if his form dips on his return he'll be back in the bad books.

I read on another thread that Dowell, Paterson, Bielik and Shinnie don't tick the boxes for our need for creative midfielders. So we're giving up on 4 (FOUR) new signings after 5 league games.

Unbelievable!

[RandomAccessMemory]

1 hour ago, RamNut said:

The summer transfer business - or lack of - is the issue.

midfield creativity was the priority to address in the summer

shinnie, bielik, dowell, paterson.....is not really ticking the boxes.

The rooney thing just seems like a bad fit. Hope i'm wrong.

The trip to Florida took us well away from the transfer activity at home at a time when we'd already missed the first month of the transfer window whilst waiting for Frank to finish his Croque Monsieur.  obviously Cocu had had little or no time to assess his squad, and wouldn't have been particularly well informed regarding the merits of available players. Every good manager needs a good scout, and as far as i'm aware, he hasn't brought one. Burley achieved miracles because of the scout he brought. Same with Arthur and Jim etc etc. Recruitment is still our weakness. We seem to put all of our faith in the academy. It was too soon to worry about blocking the progression of bird and sibley and therefore limiting ourselves to the loan market. I remain puzzled by the decision to part company with thomas and elsnik. At one time they seemed likely to be the next models about to roll off the production line.

Although Knight looks like a real find, we still seem a bit short in central and wide midfield positions.

It is what it is. We haven't got the luxury of strength in depth and therefore we have limited ability to rotate without seriously weakening the team. Thats why we got stuffed at forest (not helped by seeming to place malone and martin on gardening leave).

unfortunately that defeat was a totally predictable and unnecessary self-inflicted wound which has soured the mood of a few. It seems like managerial naivety and a missed opportunity. Others will disagree. no-one will convince me of the merits of that team selection. But its gone now.

onwards and hopefully upwards.

 

 

 

 

Has Elsnik signed for another club yet? I've not seen anyone mention him in the ex rams thread. Maybe we could pick him back up if not?

I'm guessing you didn't hear Cocu's post match interview on RD, he was talking about players being injured and he mentioned Malone. I don't remember him expanding on it and it came as a surprise. I know he was on the bench on Saturday but might he have actually been carrying a minor knock that we thought we'd risk if we needed to but not if not, and didn't want to risk him on Tuesday either?

[Andicis]

13 minutes ago, angieram said:

Bielik

To be fair, Bielik was never intended as a creative midfielder, and has generally speaking been received well by fans so far.

[atherstoneram]

2 minutes ago, angieram said:

Didn't Bogle make his first team debut away at Oldham this time last year? And weren't many people calling for him to be dropped 'for his own sake' over the course of many matches that side of Christmas 2018?

It's funny how he's now one of the three players that have been deemed indispensable to our success. A lot of weight for a young pair of shoulders to carry and if his form dips on his return he'll be back in the bad books.

I read on another thread that Dowell, Paterson, Bielik and Shinnie don't tick the boxes for our need for creative midfielders. So we're giving up on 4 (FOUR) new signings after 5 league games.

Unbelievable!

I just wish people would give them time, yes Dowell has given differing performances,probably trying too much to impress as his other loans haven't been an outstanding success,he will be fully aware of that. Paterson, hated by some because of his previous about Derby so straightaway extra scrutiny imposed on him by some fans. Bielik, hardly had a chance to show what he can do yet,probably the transfer fee involved fans expecting him to hit the ground running. Shinnie, 1st 90 minutes  played for the First team on Tuesday and never gave up running box to box. A lot of it seems to be a lack of confidence,get the confidence back and the creativity will follow,,get settled in here at Derby and will improve the more 1st team minutes they get and the team as a whole get settled into a system.

Time for some fans is sadly lacking

[Wignall12]

2 hours ago, Saity said:

You are....you're saying all you can go on is what you see on the pitch and by the league table and saying he's proved nothing in English Football thats not questioning it as you put it  its a fact and if he'd won every game so far would still apply so its not a question is it ? as its too early to judge....thats the point!

The league table is in its infancy and Norwich and plenty of other teams have been in a worse position than us and yet made it to the premiership...Mel in my view has worked wonders to get a manager of Cocu's calibre to be our manager and the last thing we need is fans getting impatient after a handful of games......who exactly would you want as manager ?? 

OOH, OOH !........don't tell me , let me guess , he wants Colin or Billy back 

[angieram]

28 minutes ago, Andicis said:

To be fair, Bielik was never intended as a creative midfielder, and has generally speaking been received well by fans so far.

I think we are hoping he'll be our George Thorne replacement and George was our most creative player, even from CDM. So, why shouldn't Bielik be that creator, once is fully fit?

[Andicis]

Just now, angieram said:

I think we are hoping he'll be our George Thorne replacement and George was our most creative player, even from CDM. So, why shouldn't Bielik be that creator, once is fully fit?

Sure, and I certainly hope he can be, but I feel the burden of creativity lies more in the midfielders and wingers beyond him, than with him. If he can create things, then brilliant, but his first and foremost job is to shield the back four and win the ball back I'd say. I'd also argue George being our most creative player with Will Hughes.

[Ambitious]

16 hours ago, Floppy Sausage said:

Yeah but had Norwich not just been promoted from league 1? Bit different to taking on a team expected to challenge each season. Norwich weren’t expected to do anything. Every so often you get a Burnley, a Norwich, a Hull etc. We need consistency, not just hoping for a freak season where everything just clicks.

The opposite, they had been relegated from the Premier League. I think finished 8th in the Championship, sacked their manager then hired Farke who led them to a lower mid-table finish. He was then tasked with selling their best players, yet managed to develop/bring in a good squad that went on to win the league. 

[Marriot Ram99]

Shows what some of our fans are like, I went on to YouTube to watch the highlights of the forest game and in the comments there were two separate comments saying Cocu has to go with people giving the comments upvotes,  I'm not too happy so far but its the players who aren't playing well , its not his tactics, and its better to find out certain young players aren't ready in the cup than in the league. I fear after the Forest game, 2 more games without a win and Cocu will already be under a lot of pressure by some fans.

[Ghost of Clough]

43 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said:

Has Elsnik signed for another club yet? I've not seen anyone mention him in the ex rams thread. Maybe we could pick him back up if not?

I'm guessing you didn't hear Cocu's post match interview on RD, he was talking about players being injured and he mentioned Malone. I don't remember him expanding on it and it came as a surprise. I know he was on the bench on Saturday but might he have actually been carrying a minor knock that we thought we'd risk if we needed to but not if not, and didn't want to risk him on Tuesday either?

Think he's gone back to Slovenia

[angieram]

7 minutes ago, Andicis said:

Sure, and I certainly hope he can be, but I feel the burden of creativity lies more in the midfielders and wingers beyond him, than with him. If he can create things, then brilliant, but his first and foremost job is to shield the back four and win the ball back I'd say. I'd also argue George being our most creative player with Will Hughes.

I don't think we're disagreeing and I think it's the team blend that has to be right to achieve creativity, rather than the responsibility of one individual.

That's the thing that Cocu is still working on and he needs time to achieve it. Other people who are calling out individual players as not good enough are not helping. They may be the right players but in the wrong combination at the moment.