Angry Ram Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Hang on - I thought things were better in the early seventies - before we joined the EU? In fact I've seen nothing but old farts telling me how great it was back then. Kids could play outdoors, a family could survive on one wage, you could buy a house for twice your annual salary, fewer cars on the road, jumpers for goal posts etc etc Evidence? In fact I was told exactly that by posters on here who assure me its better now and not to worry. 3 day weeks, strikes and power cuts were better than we have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: No deal brexit is not the end - it's just the start Thought it was the end of the world?? Start of something good?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ram for All Seasons Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 15 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Hang on - I thought things were better in the early seventies - before we joined the EU? In fact I've seen nothing but old farts telling me how great it was back then. Kids could play outdoors, a family could survive on one wage, you could buy a house for twice your annual salary, fewer cars on the road, jumpers for goal posts etc etc And Derby County were the best team in England (fact). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 2 hours ago, A Ram for All Seasons said: On the one side, there is the Deliveroo courier on his bike in the rain trying to earn enough on a zero-hours contract to pay his unregulated rent for his insecure tenancy in a buy-to-let former council block. On the other side, there is Deliveroo’s highest paid director last year who awarded himself a 57% increase in basic pay and £8.3m in share options. This is the sort of society the Conservatives want to see. Brexit is a means to achieving that aim by building a bonfire of even more deregulation, and it has to be considered in this context. Economists have predicted that Johnson's deal could reduce Britain’s per capita GDP by up to 7% over 10 years compared with remaining (prediction not fact), which will make things even worse. This why it Brexit needs to be resisted by all democratic means, starting by allowing enough time for proper debate in Parliament, submitting amendments and putting it to a people's vote. P.S. Before anybody tries to get their knickers in a twist, this is a statement of my personal personal opinion and does not purport to be an empirically derived statement of eternal truth. So Brexit needs to be resisted by all democratic means because Directors are currently earning huge sums of money whilst workers are struggling to get by on zero hour contracts. If this is already happening, why would remaining in the EU make any difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 5 minutes ago, Angry Ram said: Thought it was the end of the world?? Start of something good?? Brexit was supposed to be a chance to wrest power to make our own rules and trade deals away from the EU. Having seen what we have seen from our own potential rule makers and deal brokers in the past three years, do you think these bozos, regardless of political persuasion, are really going to make life better for us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 17 minutes ago, Anag Ram said: Brexit was supposed to be a chance to wrest power to make our own rules and trade deals away from the EU. Having seen what we have seen from our own potential rule makers and deal brokers in the past three years, do you think these bozos, regardless of political persuasion, are really going to make life better for us? Nope, not really, on wither side. However we live in a (sort of) democracy, so we get a chance to bring in new ones at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ram for All Seasons Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 20 minutes ago, maxjam said: So Brexit needs to be resisted by all democratic means because Directors are currently earning huge sums of money whilst workers are struggling to get by on zero hour contracts. If this is already happening, why would remaining in the EU make any difference? Hostility to EU regulation is merely a surrogate target for hostility to regulation in general, seen as holding back burgeoning British free enterprise. To realise full ‘regulatory divergence’ from EU controls (the glittering prize of a no-deal Brexit), Johnson has now proposed the creation of free economic zones or free ports, offering lower import taxes and customs tariffs, favourable manufacturing locations, and looser regulation to lure investment in up to 10 ports around the country. These free ports will be situated mainly in declining and ‘left-behind’ areas such as Teeside. Such zones are not specifically precluded by EU regulations, although it is true to say that they are regarded by the Commission as potential havens for counterfeiting goods and money laundering. In fact, over 80 exist within the EU, the majority in the newer member states of Eastern Europe. Besides providing free-enterprise zones where capitalism can be let loose to do what it does best, their attractiveness for employers is that they are typically insulated from employment protection and minimum wage legislation, while collective bargaining and trade union representation are generally non-existent. Free ports are ‘the Singapore scenario made real’ in the UK context. They will be the forward positions in a greater national project of wholesale deregulation accompanied by comprehensive labour subordination, UK-apore as one big free port. https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/08/12/boris-johnsons-real-agenda-the-singapore-scenario/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Can't decide if you vote Conservative or Brexit Party? Avoid splitting the vote or vote with your heart? Why note vote for both on the same ballot paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 27 minutes ago, maxjam said: So Brexit needs to be resisted by all democratic means because Directors are currently earning huge sums of money whilst workers are struggling to get by on zero hour contracts. If this is already happening, why would remaining in the EU make any difference? Looking forward to the response to this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 5 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: No, what you was talking about was this:- "Labour currently is the only party talking about the things that really matter to ordinary people. The NHS, workers rights, austerity (get ready for that to make a reappearance after a GE should the Conservatives get back in with a decent majority) - everything of real value." Something which I proved to be wrong. Also, do you not remember the state the country had been left in by Labour before the Cons/Libs caused all the mayhem? Just in case you don't, here is a little recap:- https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/full_extent_of_gordon_brown_s_economic_failure_revealed_oasfuumxrgxytpganrmhizrj9kc# You're usually a better debater than that. Taxpayers Alliance = A right-wing pressure group formed in 2004 to campaign for a low-tax society. One-eyed seems to be the best description. That article linked just pours out a whole load of unsubstantiated and un-referenced "facts" to rubbish a PM's daft claims who was in power for 3 whole years. I was reading an article in the FT that stated Sajid Javed was going to be ruling out tax cuts in favour of higher public spending. Interesting if it comes to pass. But i wonder whether therefore, the taxpayers alliance will feel affronted enough to issue an update to their "facts" to cover the 9 years we have had since GB was booted out of no 10? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 9 minutes ago, Angry Ram said: Nope, not really, on wither side. However we live in a (sort of) democracy, so we get a chance to bring in new ones at some point. All vapour though. I'm surprised we persist with some notion of the nation state being somehow "sovereign" in the teeth of the massive forces of global capitalists and financiers. Soros broke the BoE in 1992 and demonstrated the point. There is now much more money being moved around by these guys - they can make or break national banks and hence economies. And still the chant of "economic growth" and figures like Christine Lagarde swan around the globe pretending that they have some influence. Yeah right...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 2 hours ago, GboroRam said: Not possible, yet the NHS is stealthily being sold off in bits and has been for years. You can't trust these Tories, and you can't trust the yellowish Tories going by the Lib Dem name. Most of which was under a Labour government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 22 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Knew it was a mistake to try and introduce some light hearted humour into this thread ? sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 36 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: You're usually a better debater than that. Taxpayers Alliance = A right-wing pressure group formed in 2004 to campaign for a low-tax society. One-eyed seems to be the best description. That article linked just pours out a whole load of unsubstantiated and un-referenced "facts" to rubbish a PM's daft claims who was in power for 3 whole years. I was reading an article in the FT that stated Sajid Javed was going to be ruling out tax cuts in favour of higher public spending. Interesting if it comes to pass. But i wonder whether therefore, the taxpayers alliance will feel affronted enough to issue an update to their "facts" to cover the 9 years we have had since GB was booted out of no 10? The head of the Taxpayers Alliance at the time of the article went on to lead the Vote Leave campaign as chairman, and is now advising Sajid Javid in his role. Small world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 13 minutes ago, Norman said: Most of which was under a Labour government. A Blair led Labour - the kind people are telling us we need to ditch Corbyn and return to. I've never defended "new" Labour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 minute ago, GboroRam said: A Blair led Labour - the kind people are telling us we need to ditch Corbyn and return to. I've never defended "new" Labour A lot of them are still lurking in the shadows, though. It's the reason Momentum etc keep Corbyn in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 48 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said: Hostility to EU regulation is merely a surrogate target for hostility to regulation in general, seen as holding back burgeoning British free enterprise. I never mentioned anything about regulation (or lack of) or what may or may not happen in the future. I simply highlighted the fact that you were arguing company directors earn vast sums of money whilst regular workers scrape by on zero hour contracts and related it to Brexit being resisted at all costs - yet its currently happening whilst we are in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 51 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Looking forward to the response to this one! Probably not from me though. @MaxJam hits a bit of a nail on the head and reiterates what I said a few pages ago. It's not really about the EU and never was. It was a protest against ordinary people's general unhappiness with the way we are governed. Anyone who thinks the EU is any more or less useless and corrupt than our own British institution is sadly mistaken. All we'll get from Brexit as it stands is more dissatisfaction Then what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ram for All Seasons Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 16 minutes ago, maxjam said: 1 hour ago, A Ram for All Seasons said: Hostility to EU regulation is merely a surrogate target for hostility to regulation in general, seen as holding back burgeoning British free enterprise. I never mentioned anything about regulation (or lack of) or what may or may not happen in the future That's something you ought to be thinking about, thinking very hard indeed. Inequality results from insufficient regulation and economic imbalances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Probably not from me though. @MaxJam hits a bit of a nail on the head and reiterates what I said a few pages ago. It's not really about the EU and never was. It was a protest against ordinary people's general unhappiness with the way we are governed. Whilst I'd agree that Brexit was some way a backlash to the way we've been governed recently I personally think the EU is not fit for purpose and just another layer of bureaucracy that we're even further detached from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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