The Politics Thread 2019

[Stive Pesley]

15 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

I’m up for that.. it’s good I am on the right side..

I can confirm you are indeed a Roundhead 

[A Ram for All Seasons]

42 minutes ago, Norman said:

You can vote the Tories out if you wish. 

The EU promotes austerity. They admit as much. I have posted the evidence. 

In 30 or so years, if we do not leave, we will have to take the single currency. My opinion of course. But the single currency requires us long-term. Or it requires us not to be in the EU. 

I agree that the € was a big mistake, but I think Angela Merkel's government was more to blame than the EU.

A lot of the money that was lost in Greece was from bad loans made by private banks, especially the Deutsche Bank and Commerzbank.

Merkel was basically doing the same thing as Gordon Brown and Philip Hammond did with RBS, i.e. bailing out private banks with taxpayer's money by buying up shares and selling them at loss.

The € meant that the exchange rate could not be adjusted to make the Greek economy more competitive, so the only option was to screw pensioners and low earners with austerity to bail out the banks.

I don't think Britain would ever be daft enough to join the Eurozone, but the Eurozone and the EU are not the same thing.

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

You can vote the Tories out if you wish

I've seen several posters use this glib retort recently. FPTP is not fit for purpose

OK - so I live in Derby North, which is deemed a marginal because the Tories won it in 2015, and probably will again in the next GE because of Chris Williamson's stupidity

http://www.voterpower.org.uk/Derby-north

But even so -67% of people didn't vote for the winning candidate in the 2017 election.

So I'm sorry - the idea of "if you don't like it vote them out" is at best disingenuous and at worst rank stupidity

Yes it's literallly all we can do to vote for the "other guy" and hope for the best, but as a poiltical arguing point it's meaningless

[Stive Pesley]

12 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

I don't think Britain would ever be daft enough to join the Eurozone, but the Eurozone and the EU are not the same thing.

Correct- we have a veto, and that's another example of where we've actually been able to tailor our EU membership to our own benefit. There are also some countries who retain their own currency but the exchange rate is pegged to the Euro. Yet we don't do that either. EU membership with an autonomous currency is one of the reasons we're a strong member

We couldn't just be forced to join the Euro. There would have to be a compelling political case for doing so (in effect we'd only do that voluntarily if it was a better option than sticking with the £). I mean seriously what thought process goes through the mind of people who claim we will be "forced to join the Euro in 30 years"?

[Uptherams]

8 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Correct- we have a veto, and that's another example of where we've actually been able to tailor our EU membership to our own benefit. 

The last 3 and a half years especially, have shown that a Veto is pointless because our politicians don't care what we think. 

[GboroRam]

5 minutes ago, Uptherams said:

The last 3 and a half years especially, have shown that a Veto is pointless because our politicians don't care what we think. 

Then vote them out.

I'd say vote Labour.

[WhiteHorseRam]

1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said:

Far point, but I'm just a nobody making weak jokes on DCFC fans forum.

When Farage says he will don khaki and get his rifle out if we don't leave, or Tory Brexiteers keep using war like analogies, then this generates feelings that move us towards a more violent outcome.

My 'joke' was meant to be a piss take of their outrageous comments.

Spot on - didn't mean to dig at you as an individual, but the posturing language (which you described an example of) worries me.

Lefties also talk about 'struggles' and 'direct action' …. animated talking penises on all sides.

[Van der MoodHoover]

3 hours ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

Spot on - didn't mean to dig at you as an individual, but the posturing language (which you described an example of) worries me.

Lefties also talk about 'struggles' and 'direct action' …. animated talking penises on all sides.

Don't forget "class war"...?

[Rev]

3 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Don't forget "class war"...?

That would be a good separate topic, how do you define Class these days?

Does such a devide even exist, if so has it changed?

[Van der MoodHoover]

17 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

That would be a good separate topic, how do you define Class these days?

Does such a devide even exist, if so has it changed?

There are so many labels today. Nimbys, dinkys jams and it goes on....

In my line of work (actuary) we think of groups in terms of demography, ie when they were born. So baby boomers, generation x, millenials...that sort of thing.

We use those broad groups to identify both their financial needs (eg do they need to save for a pension) and their financial capability (do they have any cash).

I don't understand the old class labels  but whether or not those precise groupings exist there is surely plenty of division around....

[Norman]

8 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

I've seen several posters use this glib retort recently. FPTP is not fit for purpose

OK - so I live in Derby North, which is deemed a marginal because the Tories won it in 2015, and probably will again in the next GE because of Chris Williamson's stupidity

http://www.voterpower.org.uk/Derby-north

But even so -67% of people didn't vote for the winning candidate in the 2017 election.

So I'm sorry - the idea of "if you don't like it vote them out" is at best disingenuous and at worst rank stupidity

Yes it's literallly all we can do to vote for the "other guy" and hope for the best, but as a poiltical arguing point it's meaningless

Glib glib glibbity glib glib. 

You can vote to remove the Tories. You can't vote who sits upon the ECB board etc. 

It's more removed, therefore I don't like it. 

Not my fault you don't like the current voting system. But t not vote a certain way on the EU because of it? Not good enough.

Anyway, I can vote to get it changed. 

Glibbity glib glib. 

[Norman]

50 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

That would be a good separate topic, how do you define Class these days?

Does such a devide even exist, if so has it changed?

Upper working class gets talked about a lot. 

Or is that just lower middle class. 

Or rich working class. 

Or poor middle class. 

Meh. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

Er, ok.....got time on your hands by any chance Norman?

[1of4]

4 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Don't forget "class war"...?

May have been a few skirmishes but we've never had an all out class war in this country.

The elite rich have always managed to either con, bully, scare, fool or simply bribe, enough of the population to keep themselves in power and have control over us

[Van der MoodHoover]

7 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

May have been a few skirmishes but we've never had an all out class war in this country.

The elite rich have always managed to either con, bully, scare, fool or simply bribe, enough of the population to keep themselves in power and have control over us

Elite rich worked out early on to keep the public broadly intoxicated enough to dampen rebellion.....

[Norman]

26 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Er, ok.....got time on your hands by any chance Norman?

At the gym. Post in between sets. 

If I'm not dancing in the mirror flexing. 

[Rev]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

Upper working class gets talked about a lot. 

Or is that just lower middle class. 

Or rich working class. 

Or poor middle class. 

Meh. 

I couldn't spell Divide, so don't ask me!

[ariotofmyown]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

At the gym. Post in between sets. 

If I'm not dancing in the mirror flexing. 

Sounds like the start of one of them rap songs that the lower middle class listen too to pretend they are more upper working class.

[FindernRam]

12 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Elite rich worked out early on to keep the public broadly intoxicated enough to dampen rebellion.....

Every country of all political persuasions has its Elite rich, its just the way it is. Socialism is no different, How wealthy is Blair? .Corbyn is not exactly on the breadline. At nation level, China, Russia, Korea, Venezuela, France. They all have massively rich people at the top.

In a perverse way that's a bit reassuring, if someone can look after themselves, then there's a chance they can look after the country as well.  

Name me a country with a Corbyn, McDonnell brand of socialism that is a success, i.e. has a better standard of living than the UK, and if you can find one convince me that the people at the top have essential the same "income" as the plebs.

[GboroRam]

4 minutes ago, FindernRam said:

How wealthy is Blair? 

Can we stop equating Tory Blair with socialism please? He is no socialist.

And socialism doesn't equate to equal pay for everyone. Communism doesn't equate to equal pay for everyone. Nobody is suggesting there will be a blanket income for all. That's not what this is about.