maxjam Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Just now, A Ram for All Seasons said: That's something you ought to be thinking about, thinking very hard indeed. I could lie awake at night worrying about it, but it still doesn't alter the fact that the scenario you described is already occuring whilst we're in the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 4 minutes ago, maxjam said: I could lie awake at night worrying about it, but it still doesn't alter the fact that the scenario you described is already occuring whilst we're in the EU. And its promotion of austerity measures on the poorest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, maxjam said: Whilst I'd agree that Brexit was some way a backlash to the way we've been governed recently I personally think the EU is not fit for purpose and just another layer of bureaucracy that we're even further detached from. Agreed - I did mean to say "for some people it was a protest against general unhappiness with the way we are governed" - rather than suggest that was why everyone voted leave I also get the feeling that railing against the EU is to a large degree driven by the fact it’s an overseas federal entity that is “just not British”. A lot of the specific criticisms of it are over-stated and, when challenged shown to not actually be the fault of the EU. Certainly very little criticism that couldn’t be aimed at our own parliamentary processes. We’re equally unfit for purpose. FPTP voting, unelected second house – neither of which are especially democratic. Not to mention the archaic principle of electing MPs to represent your interests – a practice which evolved back in the days without radio or TV or public transport. You’d literally elect a guy and put him on a horse to London and hope he arrived, and then stuck up for you! But maybe we have to take the EU out of the picture before we finally accept our own failings as a country and do something tangible about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ram for All Seasons Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 22 minutes ago, maxjam said: I could lie awake at night worrying about it, but it still doesn't alter the fact that the scenario you described is already occuring whilst we're in the EU. And it will get much worse when we are out of the EU, for the reasons described in the blog I quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 55 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said: sorry No worries, no offence taken! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 minute ago, A Ram for All Seasons said: And it will get much worse when we are out of the EU, for the reasons described in the blog I quoted. Only if the Tories remain in power surely? Labour has a very different agenda. Your original argument had little to do with Brexit more to do with UK Government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 35 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Probably not from me though. @MaxJam hits a bit of a nail on the head and reiterates what I said a few pages ago. It's not really about the EU and never was. It was a protest against ordinary people's general unhappiness with the way we are governed. Anyone who thinks the EU is any more or less useless and corrupt than our own British institution is sadly mistaken. All we'll get from Brexit as it stands is more dissatisfaction Then what? Once again, you're a Remainer trying to tell Leavers why they voted the way they did. You still dont get it do you? There were 17.4 million people who voted for a range of reasons so why are you trying to pigeon hole all of them? It's that sort of arrogance from MPs that has turned things nasty. I've not seen too many argue that the EU being corrupt was a reason for leaving? More dissatisfaction based on what? If you're unhappy then you have directly elected representatives that you can show you are unhappy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said: Once again, you're a Remainer trying to tell Leavers why they voted the way they did. You still dont get it do you? There were 17.4 million people who voted for a range of reasons so why are you trying to pigeon hole all of them? It's that sort of arrogance from MPs that has turned things nasty. I've not seen too many argue that the EU being corrupt was a reason for leaving? More dissatisfaction based on what? If you're unhappy then you have directly elected representatives that you can show you are unhappy. I think you didn't read my follow up message ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ram for All Seasons Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 13 minutes ago, maxjam said: Only if the Tories remain in power surely? Labour has a very different agenda. Your original argument had little to do with Brexit more to do with UK Government. The rise of companies like Deliveroo, Amazon and Sports Direct,who treat their workers like dirt, is due to greed and opportunism, and there's plenty of that both inside and outside the EU. In my opinion,the regulatory framework provided by the EU will help us to defend people's working conditions and prevent Britain from becoming a Singapore-style sweatshop where these working conditions are the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 49 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said: The rise of companies like Deliveroo, Amazon and Sports Direct,who treat their workers like dirt, is due to greed and opportunism, and there's plenty of that both inside and outside the EU. In my opinion,the regulatory framework provided by the EU will help us to defend people's working conditions and prevent Britain from becoming a Singapore-style sweatshop where these working conditions are the norm. If you're scared that BJ or the Tories post Brexit will turn us into a Singapore-style sweatshop then vote them out. Alternatively seeing as Deliveroo, Amazon and Sports Direct are already happening whilst we're in the EU we could vote ourselves out of that instead. Oh wait... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 7 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said: The head of the Taxpayers Alliance at the time of the article went on to lead the Vote Leave campaign as chairman, and is now advising Sajid Javid in his role. Small world. Isn't it? Got to admire their branding campaign, managing to position themselves as a consensus ("alliance") of a broad church of society ("tax-payers") and gaining a superficial veneer of resonableness. Perhaps Momentum could learn a thing or two and rebrand themselves as the "Societal Consensus" or something ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said: We’re equally unfit for purpose. FPTP voting, unelected second house – neither of which are especially democratic. Not to mention the archaic principle of electing MPs to represent your interests – a practice which evolved back in the days without radio or TV or public transport. You’d literally elect a guy and put him on a horse to London and hope he arrived, and then stuck up for you! But maybe we have to take the EU out of the picture before we finally accept our own failings as a country and do something tangible about it Without sounding like Guy Fawkes, it would be good to burn it all down and start over. The world has moved on, our political institutions are still using laws and traditions dating back to 1604... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 3 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said: You're usually a better debater than that. Taxpayers Alliance = A right-wing pressure group formed in 2004 to campaign for a low-tax society. One-eyed seems to be the best description. That article linked just pours out a whole load of unsubstantiated and un-referenced "facts" to rubbish a PM's daft claims who was in power for 3 whole years. I was reading an article in the FT that stated Sajid Javed was going to be ruling out tax cuts in favour of higher public spending. Interesting if it comes to pass. But i wonder whether therefore, the taxpayers alliance will feel affronted enough to issue an update to their "facts" to cover the 9 years we have had since GB was booted out of no 10? Yeah, it was quite a disappointing effort actually, especially that I quite often criticise another poster for posting pointless links! To be fair I was in a rush to get out of the house and just linked the first article I could find! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 39 minutes ago, maxjam said: Without sounding like Guy Fawkes, it would be good to burn it all down and start over. The world has moved on, our political institutions are still using laws and traditions dating back to 1604... You would hope that with what has happened in politics over the last 3 years, politicians would realise that there is something massively wrong with the system and look at major reforms. Unfortunately I still think that a lot of them still just think there wondering why the peasants are revolting and just think nobody will notice if they carry on dishing up more of the same! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 hour ago, maxjam said: Without sounding like Guy Fawkes, it would be good to burn it all down and start over. The world has moved on, our political institutions are still using laws and traditions dating back to 1604... A civil war maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 57 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: A civil war maybe? I’m up for that.. it’s good I am on the right side.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadbob Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 7 hours ago, Uptherams said: Government this government that. In my experience it's corporations and employers that are a far bigger problem. Unions today are useless. They care far more about elected officials than fighting day to day for their members on actual working conditions, pay, etc. Corporations care far more about virtue signalling than paying their employees more and treating them better. To top it off, it's almost enforced that employees must engage in unpaid community or charity work. What do you mean by the enforced community/charity work bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 12 minutes ago, Angry Ram said: I’m up for that.. it’s good I am on the right side.. In terms of physicality, the Leave side are at a major disadvantage all been old. And strategy will be a struggle with the lower intelligence levels. You will have the arms dealers though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 10 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: In terms of physicality, the Leave side are at a major disadvantage all been old. And strategy will be a struggle with the lower intelligence levels. You will have the arms dealers though. But remain won't have the energy, due to a diet of tofu and grass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 23 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: In terms of physicality, the Leave side are at a major disadvantage all been old. And strategy will be a struggle with the lower intelligence levels. You will have the arms dealers though. Yeah but all the brains are with us.. Little and medium Angry can do the physical stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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