The Politics Thread 2019

[uttoxram75]

11 hours ago, Van Gritters said:

Again your opinion only.

How do you know the whole country won’t benefit from leaving the EU?

Its not an opinion obout who funded Brexit, thats all in the public domain. If people choose not to believe it thats a different matter.

Short term, it appears we will see fairly drastic changes based on the views of a wide spectrum of people, including business leaders.

How its all gonna pan out long term is an opinion, although if working conditions, consumer standards and environmental protections aren't kept then its really difficult to see how the majority of us will be better off.

I think its fair to say that all we can do is discuss the issues calmly and not fall out amongst ourselves. 

 

[Eddie]

45 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Government produces a document called "baseline analysis".  People who feared Brexit may be disastrous are worried.

Government renames it "worst case". People who ignored the fears are enthusiastic about it, completely missing the point that the best case scenario is that some of them don't happen.

Brexit is a cult, and its adherents will change any facts to fit the latest utterances of their high priests.

They have progressed from "Four legs good, two legs bad" to "Four legs good, two legs better".

[maxjam]

36 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Max has explained in the past that he is a big fan of free speech, and that we shouldn’t deplatform people who we think have more extreme views than us. We should debate them, prove them wrong and then the bad ideas will give up and pipe down. We had many back and forths on here and whilst it’s sad that he doesn’t feel it’s worth him posting on here anymore, perhaps that’s just the natural conclusion of debate? For what it’s worth, in my opinion he’s definitely not stupid.

Thanks... 

To clear up a few points that others have posted, I never meant to imply that I had been called racist or stupid, although I have been at times on this forum - but that's water of a ducks back.  What I meant was that the whole Brexit argument has become so entrenched that its pointless carrying on (see post above this?).  The discussion might move forwards from time to time but it always ends with the same polarised arguments.  The politicians have shown that they are a law unto themselves and we're just along for the ride and I personally can't be bothered with the petty snide comments anymore.

When the topic drifts away from Brexit and I have something to say I'll chime in, but unless something drastic happens I think I'm all Brexited out!

[ariotofmyown]

8 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Thanks... 

To clear up a few points that others have posted, I never meant to imply that I had been called racist or stupid, although I have been at times on this forum - but that's water of a ducks back.  What I meant was that the whole Brexit argument has become so entrenched that its pointless carrying on (see post above this?).  The discussion might move forwards from time to time but it always ends with the same polarised arguments.  The politicians have shown that they are a law unto themselves and we're just along for the ride and I personally can't be bothered with the petty snide comments anymore.

When the topic drifts away from Brexit and I have something to say I'll chime in, but unless something drastic happens I think I'm all Brexited out!

Still think it's a shame that the posters more sympathetic to Brexit have all decided this is the time to stop posting.

It's probably a total coincidence, but this last week or two is when the Vote Leave crew have been brutally exposed as liars and in the pay of big business, gambling on the decline of the country.

I was hoping that leavers may have been able to recognise this. It's ok to think that leaving the EU is a good idea, but many of the people involved in it are corrupt liars.

It's also ok to think that remain is a good idea and that Vote Leave used 'others' as an unsavoury tactic to scare people and find someone to blame.

I am not saying that all leave voters are thick and racists.

[Stive Pesley]

It’s the intransigents on both sides that are the problem.

The Leavers who say “we should just get on with it – we voted leave”, and refuse to consider any evidence or facts

The Remainers who say “we should remain – all leave voters were misled/racist/stupid”.

The latter’s arrogance only drives the former’s entrenchment

I’ve been attacked by hardcore remainer friends for daring to suggest that (despite me voting remain) I’d happily leave the EU if there was a deal that meant the drawbacks were offset by new positives.

The truth of the result was that almost half the country voted to remain and just over half the country voted to leave.

We need to encourage people try and empathise with those that voted the opposite way to them. Without that we are going nowhere

[Wolfie]

55 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Still think it's a shame that the posters more sympathetic to Brexit have all decided this is the time to stop posting.

It's probably a total coincidence, but this last week or two is when the Vote Leave crew have been brutally exposed as liars and in the pay of big business, gambling on the decline of the country.

I was hoping that leavers may have been able to recognise this. It's ok to think that leaving the EU is a good idea, but many of the people involved in it are corrupt liars.

It's also ok to think that remain is a good idea and that Vote Leave used 'others' as an unsavoury tactic to scare people and find someone to blame.

I am not saying that all leave voters are thick and racists.

Thing is, the reports that the Leave campaign was funded by massive vested interests is pretty irrelevant to me, as it doesn't have any bearing on my reasons for the way I voted.

I would imagine, for many Leave voters, this week's "revelations" sound a lot like the stuff of conspiracy theory. Who funded the Remain campaign and with what motivation?. Vested interests on both sides I'm sure and stories like this really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Always follow the money.

That was a rhetorical question, as I'm not really bothered what the answer is. I voted Leave based on a gut feeling and the aversion to being dragged into further integration with the "EU Project". Massive structural problems with the Euro and just look at the ECB's desperate attempt yesterday to breathe life into the Eurozone economies. More negative interest rates to try and boost demand and they have no weapons left. All they can do now is to instruct individual states to break the EU's own fiscal rules and borrow more in order to stimulate demand locally. It's a mess and even if we were to stay out of the Euro, it wouldn't insulate us from their problems. Project Fear or Farage posters and stuff written on a bus didn't change my opinion then and it doesn't now.

Having said all that. In a second Referendum I would vote Remain, over a chaotic No Deal and all the problems that come with it......

 

[uttoxram75]

On a wider note than Brexit, loved this quote,

 

'Austerity is the idea that the 2008 financial crash was caused by Wolverhampton having too many libraries.”

Alexei Sayle 2019

[1of4]

18 hours ago, Van Gritters said:

Again your opinion only.

How do you know the whole country won’t benefit from leaving the EU?

Can you point out what you think are my opinions.

I know the only people who will be collecting millions if not billions of pounds from us leaving the EU are those that are gambling on our country's economy collapsing.

I've yet to see hard facts that show the whole county will benefit by us leaving the EU. All I heard from leave campaigners were opinions and that many of these same campaigners are trying to now distance themselves from.

[Gritstone Ram]

1 hour ago, 1of4 said:

Can you point out what you think are my opinions.

I know the only people who will be collecting millions if not billions of pounds from us leaving the EU are those that are gambling on our country's economy collapsing.

I've yet to see hard facts that show the whole county will benefit by us leaving the EU. All I heard from leave campaigners were opinions and that many of these same campaigners are trying to now distance themselves from.

Why does it revolve around money? 

Surely the whole country benefits by gaining back control of its affairs.

[AndyinLiverpool]

5 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

Why does it revolve around money? 

Surely the whole country benefits by gaining back control of its affairs.

What affairs has the country lost control of? What are the benefits of of regaining control of these?

When you say 'the country ... gaining back control', who is it that has control in your view?

[1967Ram]

I see David Cameron thinks Gove and Johnson behaved appallingly. I think he's wrong. I think they behave appallingly.

[Gritstone Ram]

32 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

What affairs has the country lost control of? What are the benefits of of regaining control of these?

When you say 'the country ... gaining back control', who is it that has control in your view?

We can’t set our own trade deals up. We can’t control who comes into the country from the EU. We can’t set out own tariffs with many non EU countries. 

[1of4]

41 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

Why does it revolve around money? 

Surely the whole country benefits by gaining back control of its affairs.

And the facts to prove this are?

[1of4]

1 minute ago, Van Gritters said:

We can’t set our own trade deals up. We can’t control who comes into the country from the EU. We can’t set out own tariffs with many non EU countries. 

Which counties will we get a better trade deal with, than we already have. 

We have control of our own borders we just choose to not implement them.

[Gritstone Ram]

7 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

And the facts to prove this are?

Where are yours?

[AndyinLiverpool]

24 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

We can’t set our own trade deals up. We can’t control who comes into the country from the EU. We can’t set out own tariffs with many non EU countries. 

We can control who comes in from the EU, we have simply chosen not to. That is not an EU decision. Border controls were kept in place but not utilised and the border force run down.

The others are right, though I wonder how effective these will eventually be, or indeed how more beneficial a trade deal with, say, Japan or China will be for us all than existing deals. And I wonder how long these will take, given that the trade deal with the EU was supposed to be the easiest in history and that isn't going to be in place any time soon. What is going to happen in the mean time and what might be lost for good?

Do you recognise these things as genuine concerns? If so, what comfort could you give those of us who have such concerns?

[Gritstone Ram]

15 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

We can control who comes in from the EU, we have simply chosen not to. That is not an EU decision. Border controls were kept in place but not utilised and the border force run down.

The others are right, though I wonder how effective these will eventually be, or indeed how more beneficial a trade deal with, say, Japan or China will be for us all than existing deals. And I wonder how long these will take, given that the trade deal with the EU was supposed to be the easiest in history and that isn't going to be in place any time soon. What is going to happen in the mean time and what might be lost for good?

Do you recognise these things as genuine concerns? If so, what comfort could you give those of us who have such concerns?

I didn’t know about the boarder controls. Tbh I don’t care anymore I just want a conclusion. I just think we shouldn’t be scared of the unknown and believe in ourselves as a prosperous nation.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Van Gritters said:

We can’t set our own trade deals up. We can’t control who comes into the country from the EU. We can’t set out own tariffs with many non EU countries. 

Untrue.

[McRamFan]

14 hours ago, Van Gritters said:

We can’t set our own trade deals up. We can’t control who comes into the country from the EU. We can’t set out own tariffs with many non EU countries. 

Hmm...trade deals. The European Union has about 40 free trade deals, covering more than 70 countries.  The reason why is trading power.  Leave the EU you lose that power.  If you are a manufacturer of a product and you have two buyers competing, one has a demand of 1m and the other has a demand of 100m, who would you choose first and who would you give preferential prices too?

The EU can demand better tariffs, as it has more buying power than the individual countries that are in it.

We can do what we want with our borders, more migration comes into the UK from outside of the EU. 

14 hours ago, Van Gritters said:

Where are yours?

One example

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-uk-economy-damage-no-deal-impact-a8972176.html

[Gritstone Ram]

14 minutes ago, McRamFan said:

Hmm...trade deals. The European Union has about 40 free trade deals, covering more than 70 countries.  The reason why is trading power.  Leave the EU you lose that power.  If you are a manufacturer of a product and you have two buyers competing, one has a demand of 1m and the other has a demand of 100m, who would you choose first and who would you give preferential prices too?

The EU can demand better tariffs, as it has more buying power than the individual countries that are in it.

We can do what we want with our borders, more migration comes into the UK from outside of the EU. 

One example

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-uk-economy-damage-no-deal-impact-a8972176.html

It’s whatever and both sides can argue until they are blue in the face. I’ll just let things pan out and I doubt my life will be too effected either way although I do like a good holiday and I hate queuing at airports. I personally think we had a vote and leave won. Why can’t we try something different? Surely if things go tits up I bet the good old EU will be the first to welcome us back with a big smug look on their faces.