Derby County v Millwall

[DRBee]

25 minutes ago, Premier ram said:

people seem to be skirting round this , so go on i will say it , Wilson needs to be dropped for a couple of games , regain his focus and get back in the team firing on all cylinders again , maybe a chance to do this with Mount and Lawrence on the way back

Far easier to blame a player than make the manager take some responsibility. We were set up wrong last night and it ain't surprising some players struggled.Wilson is always capable of getting a goal and should be in the team.

[Ramathorn]

56 minutes ago, reveldevil said:

This may sound stupid, but take away his wonderful left foot ball striking, and there's not much else to his game.

I reckon that if you surround him with some quality players though this part of his game would shine. His interplay with mount was always impressive at the start of the season. 

58 minutes ago, reveldevil said:

Probably best for Klopp to leave him here next season, see if he can develop a more rounded game at a lower level.

...ah, I see what you’re doing. Yeah he’s crap. Klopp should give him to us ?

[G STAR RAM]

33 minutes ago, Doodle said:

There is no point in getting in a more dangerous area if when you receive the ball, you turn around and pass it into a less dangerous area. There is every point in leaving your top goal scorer  on the pitch who even if he’s not looked likely to score for 75 mins, is a far better  prospect than leaving someone on who’s not looked likely to score for 2 Years. Bryson is finished at this level, I know it, the vast majority of fans know it, deep down I suspect you know it. But he was great in 2014, blah blah blah. Some fans are more concerned with nostalgia than fact

No nostalgia here, Bryson wouldn't have started if it was down to me yesterday. However I like to look at single games in isolation and last night I thought he was offering at least as much as Wilson. 

Wilson has been poor without Mount and a few wonder strikes have masked the fact that he offers very little else.

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, reveldevil said:

This may sound stupid, but take away his wonderful left foot ball striking, and there's not much else to his game.

He's nowhere near the standard needed to break through at his parent club, and would be gobbled up by canny Premier League defenders who'd keep him on his right peg.

Probably best for Klopp to leave him here next season, see if he can develop a more rounded game at a lower level.

If you were Klopp, would you look at Wilson and think he has made much development here this season?

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, archram said:

Last night was probably the first time I’ve regretted spending £50 on train tickets and about 5 hours of time each way to watch us play. Even in dire matches last season there was usually a bit of a spark somewhere that made me think perhaps we had a few good players - but last night it completely escaped me and I was just downright bored.

Still, I expect I’ll book my place behind the settee for Monday night!

I chose a suitable game for the first home league game in years to miss. But, I've still bought my ticket for Villa online today.

[Doodle]

8 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

No nostalgia here, Bryson wouldn't have started if it was down to me yesterday. However I like to look at single games in isolation and last night I thought he was offering at least as much as Wilson. 

Wilson has been poor without Mount and a few wonder strikes have masked the fact that he offers very little else.

Agreed  but a few wonder strikes ( well about 10) should be more than enough reason to leave him on over a player who was equally ineffective and has had 0 strikes ( wonder or otherwise) for a couple of years now. He could have taken any 1 of 8 players off and none could have argued. But 1/0 down, against a team like Millwall and in desperate need of a goal, for me your top scorer stays on 

[europia]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

Based on his 2 previous kicks last night no Wilson.

In my opinion you don't leave a player on the pitch just in case you get a free kick within 30 yards of goal, of he's not performing in other areas. 

Bryson was poor last night but thought he actually got in more dangerous positions than Wilson of a couple of occasions. 

I think Wilson is getting targetted in games and he's producing very little, he's very weak in possession.

It was perhaps always going to be the case that the likes of Wilson and Mount would not finish the season in the impressive way that they played in the first few months at the club. They are young players out on loan, hoping one day to play for their parent club. Can't really build a promotion team around them. 

[Inglorius]

1 minute ago, europia said:

It was perhaps always going to be the case that the likes of Wilson and Mount would not finish the season in the impressive way that they played in the first few months at the club. They are young players out on loan, hoping one day to play for their parent club. Can't really build a promotion team around them. 

What was the point of having them on loan this season then 

[europia]

6 minutes ago, Inglorius said:

What was the point of having them on loan this season then 

It enabled the new manager, who didn't have a big transfer kitty, to bring in some young talent. 

[Inglorius]

2 minutes ago, europia said:

It enabled the new manager, who didn't have a big transfer kitty, to bring in some young talent. 

Yes but we couldn't have built a promoting winning side around them as you stated so we might as well have not brought them in and settled for mid table mediocrity 

[europia]

3 minutes ago, Inglorius said:

Yes but we couldn't have built a promoting winning side around them as you stated so we might as well have not brought them in and settled for mid table mediocrity 

Just my personal opinion on the potential limitations of some loan players. There are of course some really successful loan signings. Mitrovic to Fulham a typical example. 

[Rev]

51 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

If you were Klopp, would you look at Wilson and think he has made much development here this season?

He's getting minutes, which is a plus development wise. 

I think I see what you're getting at, has our coaching developed his game, and it would be hard to argue he's much different to the player we signed.

Whether that's down to him or us who knows, he's never seemed as raw as Ibe for instance, but the improvement Jordon showed towards the end of his curtailed loan spell was enough to see him recalled and then sold for a tidy profit, I can't say Wilson has shown the same improvement.

All players are different though, at the moment I'd say Wilson is playing at the correct level for his talent, he's way off top 4 level and probably wouldn't be trusted in a prem relegation fight, but he's got time on his side.

Equally he could be the Welsh Tom Ince, and will never be quite good enough for the top level, yet standout a league below.

[G-Ram]

Regarding Wilson its not just performance on the pitch that aids development. 

Its going to a different club, being made to live away from home & grow up thats also important. Slug it out in the championship, play first team mans football. Get booed by the derby fans at full time against millwall. Bit of character building if anything

he might go back to Liverpool & kick on more than he ever would if he stayed being ‘looked after’ in liverpool u23s. Similar to Lingard he never looked decent at derby. Looks decent now & is an england regular. Not all about on the pitch but as much off it with some loan deals 

 

[Colm]

[Inverurie Ram]

21 hours ago, reveldevil said:

He's getting minutes, which is a plus development wise. 

I think I see what you're getting at, has our coaching developed his game, and it would be hard to argue he's much different to the player we signed.

Whether that's down to him or us who knows, he's never seemed as raw as Ibe for instance, but the improvement Jordon showed towards the end of his curtailed loan spell was enough to see him recalled and then sold for a tidy profit, I can't say Wilson has shown the same improvement.

All players are different though, at the moment I'd say Wilson is playing at the correct level for his talent, he's way off top 4 level and probably wouldn't be trusted in a prem relegation fight, but he's got time on his side.

Equally he could be the Welsh Tom Ince, and will never be quite good enough for the top level, yet standout a league below.

Tom Ince hardly a standout at Stoke, more of a falldown a lot and falldown the league kind of fellow. 

But he's still bound to score against us again when we play Stoke at home, he'll probably falldown and the ball will ricochet off his sulky lip into the back of our net whilst our midfield run around a lot and also falldown when they accidentally crash into a lightweight feather!

[DavesaRam]

I had to leave the match early on Wednesday due to work, and missed the winning goal. I have actually plowed all the way through this thread, and I haven't seen stuff like this for some time. 

There are a number of observations which i was thinking about, like the lack of movement not only up front, but also in midfield as well, and  no one wanting to take responsibility or show initiative with passing the ball forwards, and a lack of passion. But in my mind there are other issues as well.

We are being stifled by our insistence on playing out from the back. because virtually every team has the antidote. As soon as Roos gets the ball, the opposition put three, sometimes four players across our penalty area and we are screwed. Sometimes a player becomes available, but often times Roos looks to roll or play the ball out to one of our defenders before seeing that they are marked, and then changes his mind. After several episodes, he finally realises that there is nothing on and looks to play the ball long, which he should have done as soon as the opposition four take up position in front of him. The alternative scenario is that Keogh, for example, actually gets the ball, and then finds that all his outlets are marked by the same three or four opponents. We then have a load of sideways-to-sideways passes until an opening appears. There is something to be said for patiently working an opening, although not a  lot in my opinion. But what it does do is make sure that once we start to move away from our own penalty box, the opposition are all in position, so forwards progress is blocked off. Several times the crowd were yelling for the quick long ball to an as yet unmarked Derby player, until the opportunity has gone.

Another factor is highlighted by Keogh and Bogle charging forwards until just over the halfway line and stopping suddenly, as if they had run into a glass door. Keogh was famous for his adventurous forwards runs, but started the season under instruction to stay in his own half. So he used to get tot the halfway line and often would lose the ball because instead of playing his natural game, he had to stop and think what to do next. He has shown a bit more freedom recently, but it hasn't been the marauding forwards we used to know and love - as soon as he gets into the other half, he has this over-riding urge to get rid of the ball.

The same has happened to Bogle - if he ever goes surging forwards, it ends in a sideways pass at or near the halfway line. Gun-ho has become gung-gone. It all emanates from our good patch, because we were letting silly goals in, so frank and Jody put the brakes on our full-backs bombing on, and Keogh charging forwards, and we have never really got back to where we should be.

Add-in that "sideways passes" rarely get played in front of the intended recipient, but to the side or behind them, meaning that they have to break their stride to get the ball, and any momentum has been lost. We also have the Huddlestone and Bryson pirouette which means that forwards momentum turns into sideways or backwards.

All of this was on display on Wednesday night. Even with the poor display, it was clear that we had the ability to take Millwall apart, but it never happened. Although lacking in skill and finesse, Millwall were really well organised, and as soon as a Derby player had the ball, you could see Millwall players peeling off and going across to pick up a Derby player. This wasn't just the line of players \cross the penalty box, it was all over the pitch, so even if we did move into position to receive the ball, there was a man on us almost immediately.

And although we were poor, the ref, and the "yellow flag" assistant were on another level. I didn't see the "Marriott penalty shout, but i did see the one on Harry Wilson. He ran onto a ball from Tomori and was breaking through the second line of defenders when he was given an almighty shove, which threw him off balance. He had the choice of going down, or try to make something of the opportunity. HE chose the latter, but never got enough balance to do any more than scuff his shot. Whether he went down or not, it should have been a penalty, but we had been given so little from the ref that he probably opted to try and get a shot off. Someone said earlier in the thread that in situations like that, if the player tries to stay on his feet, a penalty should be given. Not on Wednesday.

One of our players was booked  in the second half (Bryson?) for pushing a player off balance to break up an attack. The push was much milder than the one on Harry Wilson, but yellow card it was. This was only minutes after Keogh had been pushed and pulled off balance over a thirty or forty yard run, eventually losing his balance and putting the ball out of touch. Millwall throw, ????? !!!! Keogh then got booked for telling the truth, because he was clearly telling the ref that he was a jackass.

It is pityfull that once more we are talking about the ref affecting the game, and in this case there could have been one, or possibly even two penalties. However, the reality is that the penalty shouts were irrelevant, because we should have taken Millwall to the cleaners.

[Carnero]

17 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

It is pityfull that once more we are talking about the ref affecting the game

We?

[SuperDerbySuperRams]

On 20/02/2019 at 21:56, SuperDerbySuperRams said:

I can’t get my head around why we set up to try and play such plain passing football against 19th in the league who were clearly going to park the bus. So boring and tedious 

Earlier in the season we would have pressed them from the off and found Marriott at the earliest opportunity. That was Clementesq

FYI Preston 3-0 up at Millwall after 25 minutes... 

[North East Ram]

3 minutes ago, SuperDerbySuperRams said:

FYI Preston 3-0 up at Millwall after 25 minutes... 

Yeah, owd Wall are a tough but to crack!

[BriggRam]

10 minutes ago, SuperDerbySuperRams said:

FYI Preston 3-0 up at Millwall after 25 minutes... 

This goes to show how inept we were on Wednesday