what is the point of Lawrence

[Mr Tibbs]

Using Lawrence as the example to prove the "youth won't get a chance" point is a bit far off IMO. Derby County don't spend 5+ million on a player for the future, a price tag at this level comes with expectancy. Whilst we're on expectancy what was the quote from GR about replacing the best winger in the league? High quality replacement? It's alright Mel and Gary bemoaning the expectation but they've made their own bed with some of the things they've done.

Giving our under 23's a chance is a completely different ballgame to what we've seen with TL. Fans will give our youth a chance because there's no expectancy that comes with them. Most have hardly featured in the professional game, are complete unknown quantities to most and the main thing which is the fact they're ours. Homegrown. We're all still absolutely rooting for Mason Bennett to make something of himself and he's been around for absolutely ages. Same for Hanson. I think it's pretty clear both are probably below the required standard of where we're currently at but we're still keen to see them go in and do well.

If we do overhaul the squad this year and give the likes of Elsnik, Guy, Gordon, Bogle and Thomas a chance then I think as a fanbase we'll adapt our expectations. Just don't spend 5 million on any of them and say they're going to replace the best winger in the league.

 

 

 

[Curtains]

5 minutes ago, Mr Tibbs said:

Using Lawrence as the example to prove the "youth won't get a chance" point is a bit far off IMO. Derby County don't spend 5+ million on a player for the future, a price tag at this level comes with expectancy. Whilst we're on expectancy what was the quote from GR about replacing the best winger in the league? High quality replacement? It's alright Mel and Gary bemoaning the expectation but they've made their own bed with some of the things they've done.

Giving our under 23's a chance is a completely different ballgame to what we've seen with TL. Fans will give our youth a chance because there's no expectancy that comes with them. Most have hardly featured in the professional game, are complete unknown quantities to most and the main thing which is the fact they're ours. Homegrown. We're all still absolutely rooting for Mason Bennett to make something of himself and he's been around for absolutely ages. Same for Hanson. I think it's pretty clear both are probably below the required standard of where we're currently at but we're still keen to see them go in and do well.

If we do overhaul the squad this year and give the likes of Elsnik, Guy, Gordon, Bogle and Thomas a chance then I think as a fanbase we'll adapt our expectations. Just don't spend 5 million on any of them and say they're going to replace the best winger in the league.

 

 

 

We haven’t got a player in the U23s anywhere near the standard of Lawrence. 

I beg to differ regarding the fans being patient if we were losing games and down the bottom of the table playing the youth players. 

Its ridiculous to state this an there is no evidence for the one of our own stuff. 

[archied]

3 minutes ago, Mr Tibbs said:

Using Lawrence as the example to prove the "youth won't get a chance" point is a bit far off IMO. Derby County don't spend 5+ million on a player for the future, a price tag at this level comes with expectancy. Whilst we're on expectancy what was the quote from GR about replacing the best winger in the league? High quality replacement? It's alright Mel and Gary bemoaning the expectation but they've made their own bed with some of the things they've done.

Giving our under 23's a chance is a completely different ballgame to what we've seen with TL. Fans will give our youth a chance because there's no expectancy that comes with them. Most have hardly featured in the professional game, are complete unknown quantities to most and the main thing which is the fact they're ours. Homegrown. We're all still absolutely rooting for Mason Bennett to make something of himself and he's been around for absolutely ages. Same for Hanson. I think it's pretty clear both are probably below the required standard of where we're currently at but we're still keen to see them go in and do well.

If we do overhaul the squad this year and give the likes of Elsnik, Guy, Gordon, Bogle and Thomas a chance then I think as a fanbase we'll adapt our expectations. Just don't spend 5 million on any of them and say they're going to replace the best winger in the league.

 

 

 

We will have to agree to disagree on the level of patience that will be shown to young players if results and performances are not great , 

sadley 5 mill is the kind of money derby and other clubs HAVE to pay for young players like Tom especially forwards and you are spot on there is an expectation that comes with that figure cause most of us can’t get our head around the stupidity of fees and wages that even championship players are commanding which over the last 3 to 4 years has gone ballistic,,, how much would say Peterborough want for their couple of touted prospects last summer ? Similar or near fees with much lower experience and bigger risk of being able to make the step up ?

for every fan showing patience to an under 23 prospect there’s gonna be another that sees nothing in him and is calling him s##t and probably directly at him from the stands , please don’t pretend that’s not the case ,,, ive sat next to enough loons at games to know for myself first hand that it’s true

 

[lrm14]

9 hours ago, archied said:

So do you think Lawrence was bought as the finished article ? One loan season in championship to his name? Spotted and picked up by wales as they don’t have a massive pool to pick from? 

You are missing the point ,, yes he is ahead of a lot of our youth players in terms of age and experience but his is still a young improver with potential in terms of his purchase by us or any other club buying a premiership clubs young reserve who s route to first team football with them was proving hard ,,,I’m not arguing on individual opinions of him as a player but rather pointing out that  perhaps this dream of youngsters filling the team at derby and being cheered and supported no matter results and performances is hairy fairy pie in the sky ,, it’s pretty clear the lad feels some of our fans are on his back and that in some ways a lot of our players are having the kind of relationship they would more naturally have with away fans rather than their own fans ,,, hows that going to work with even younger players?

I don't believe he's the finished article but again, can we stop pretending he's this youth player with only one season to his name. The 34 appearances he made for Ipswich are not the only games he has under his belt in the Championship. He also made 21 appearances for Blackburn, 14 for Cardiff, 6 for Rotherham and 19 for Yeovil meaning prior to Derby he had made 94 appearances at championship level. Although some of those appearances are 1 minute cameos (those mostly come at Blackburn), he's still played on average roughly 76 of the 90 minutes in the games he featured in. To put that in perspective before Tom Ince arrived on loan at Derby he had made 106 appearances at this level, only 12 more than Lawrence. 

I totally understand your point with youth but Lawrence shouldn't be in that discussion. In general the fanbase are much more forgiving to younger players, look at the support Hughes and Hendrick received in the early days. It wasn't until Hendrick was about 23/24 that he started getting stick from fans for his inconsistency. If Guy, Bogle, Elsnik, Thomas or genuine youth player we have was to get games this season or the next I firmly believe they would get a good solid backing from the fans. Lawrence is getting stick because not only is he experienced at this level and immensely frustrating to watch, he also has that massive price tag to his name which immediately brings expectations. Vydra was a similar situation last season being played out of position and got a lot of stick, but the difference is that when he did things right he didn't sprint over to his own fans cupping his ears.

That said I've not written off Lawrence, there's clearly something there and players develop at different rates. I just feel we need to be honest in assessing him and some people on this forum see him as their golden boy who can do no wrong. I both think and hope he'll do a Vydra next season where we've figured out what his best role is and the expectations from his price tag have faded a bit. Players on loan generally have little expectations surrounding them and that's when he's been at his best in the past so hopefully it'll be the case again.

[Comrade 86]

17 hours ago, lrm14 said:

He was also being played out of position as either a solo striker or a left winger. Are you suggesting Lawrence is being played out of position like Vydra was? He does strike me as more of a attacking midfielder than a winger.

He definitely had a freer role at Ipswich and I do think there's some substance to the argument that to be seen at his best, he may need to play more centrally. Time will tell I guess whether he can prosper as a winger. I wouldn't put it past him.

[Tombo]

Cba to read the thread but guaranteed there's a reference to the cupped ear celebration here somewhere. 

Really hope that doesn't overshadow a good goal for him. I saw it as just an enjoyment of the fans adoration, something he doesn't get to hear too often. I recall Cyrus Christie doing it once because we'd been singing his name all game and then he went and scored. He was just playing with us and asking us to sing his song again and fans took it badly.

No wonder he thought we hated him... Lawrence must feel the same.

I have great admiration for any player who has that much passion playing in a Derby shirt, no matter how poor the form. 

[Mr Tibbs]

7 hours ago, curtains said:

We haven’t got a player in the U23s anywhere near the standard of Lawrence. 

I beg to differ regarding the fans being patient if we were losing games and down the bottom of the table playing the youth players. 

Its ridiculous to state this an there is no evidence for the one of our own stuff. 

Didn't say we had anyone near Lawrence tbh. 

There's literally no examples of people hounding out our youngsters down the years, especially not to the point where the player feels like he has to give the fans some back every time he scores. I don't remember seeing any "what is the point in Mark O'Brien" threads. Jeff Hendrick was marmite at times but never got the treatment Lawrence is getting. I've seen Conor ******* Doyle idolised by our fans in the away end at Preston on NY day years ago. If that's not evidence we back our own, no matter how **** they are, then I don't know what is.

7 hours ago, archied said:

We will have to agree to disagree on the level of patience that will be shown to young players if results and performances are not great , 

sadley 5 mill is the kind of money derby and other clubs HAVE to pay for young players like Tom especially forwards and you are spot on there is an expectation that comes with that figure cause most of us can’t get our head around the stupidity of fees and wages that even championship players are commanding which over the last 3 to 4 years has gone ballistic,,, how much would say Peterborough want for their couple of touted prospects last summer ? Similar or near fees with much lower experience and bigger risk of being able to make the step up ?

for every fan showing patience to an under 23 prospect there’s gonna be another that sees nothing in him and is calling him s##t and probably directly at him from the stands , please don’t pretend that’s not the case ,,, ive sat next to enough loons at games to know for myself first hand that it’s true

 

I guess we'll only find out if we take that path. Over the years our homegrown players, talented or not, have been given plenty of backing by our fans. From Will Hughes to Callum Ball, I've literally not seen anything like we're seeing for Lawrence right now. 

 

[S8TY]

Years ago I remember we wasted 3m on a player / winger/striker same as TL called Lee Morris who never delivered and was a waste of money and not all transfers work out but for 2m more as think it was 5m we signed  Lawrence who is an international and  has shown he can do it in this division albeit at Ipswich so we can live in hope, he's definitely a confidence player and think he feels the fans are not quite fully on board and some are waiting for him to mess up he could really do with a good run of decent games and goals.... for me his decision making has to improve but i do see enough in him to think he'll come good

[europia]

On 4/3/2018 at 16:27, archied said:

We will have to agree to disagree on the level of patience that will be shown to young players if results and performances are not great , 

sadley 5 mill is the kind of money derby and other clubs HAVE to pay for young players like Tom especially forwards and you are spot on there is an expectation that comes with that figure cause most of us can’t get our head around the stupidity of fees and wages that even championship players are commanding which over the last 3 to 4 years has gone ballistic,,, how much would say Peterborough want for their couple of touted prospects last summer ? Similar or near fees with much lower experience and bigger risk of being able to make the step up ?

for every fan showing patience to an under 23 prospect there’s gonna be another that sees nothing in him and is calling him s##t and probably directly at him from the stands , please don’t pretend that’s not the case ,,, ive sat next to enough loons at games to know for myself first hand that it’s true

 

Good points. As you say the reality is you have to pay £5 million for a young player showing potential. That potential is certainly not guaranteed to be fulfilled. 

[B4ev6is]

I am all for giving youth players a chance mixed with first team players and think this breath freash air into the team.

[Sparkle]

I am glad he scored and from a free kick ( having just watched it I must say that the keeper should have saved it)

[FindernRam]

Got to admit the lad done good yesterday- credit where its due!.

Hope he keeps it up.

[loweman2]

Back to the same poor quality final balls tonight ! Every one over hit, under hit or in the wrong general direction ! No attacking threat ! 30 minutes left !

[Topram]

3 minutes ago, loweman2 said:

Back to the same poor quality final balls tonight ! Every one over hit, under hit or in the wrong general direction ! No attacking threat ! 30 minutes left !

Cross this game off, let’s move on 

[belperram9]

4 minutes ago, loweman2 said:

Back to the same poor quality final balls tonight ! Every one over hit, under hit or in the wrong general direction ! No attacking threat ! 30 minutes left !

Completely agree mate. Careful tho, I got hounded for criticising him last week by **** wits who can’t see how poor he actually is. 

[Mckram]

There’s no doubting he has quality.

He just doesn’t show it half as much as he should.

We need players to perform every week, not 1 in 6.

[belperram9]

Cutting in on your right foot every time becomes too predictable. He has biscuit legs and gets bullied constantly. 

[loweman2]

Our overall ball delivery is piss poor ! He just exacerbates the problem as he should be our main outlet ! We never find our man !

[Alph]

4 minutes ago, Mckram said:

There’s no doubting he has quality.

He just doesn’t show it half as much as he should.

We need players to perform every week, not 1 in 6.

Have to say I doubt he has quality. He makes the simple look elaborate. Throws in a dance or 2 before doing something Russell could do all day every day.

I didn’t see the Bolton game but apparently he did ok. To that I’d just say he was due one. A broken clock is right once every day.

he got praise for Preston where I thought apart from 1 smashed free kick at the goal keeper and 1 run he was about a 5/10

[Mckram]

Just now, Alpha said:

Have to say I doubt he has quality. He makes the simple look elaborate. Throws in a dance or 2 before doing something Russell could do all day every day.

I didn’t see the Bolton game but apparently he did ok. To that I’d just say he was due one. A broken clock is right once every day.

he got praise for Preston where I thought apart from 1 smashed free kick at the goal keeper and 1 run he was about a 5/10

Oh I agree he’s been very poor but he does have ability.

Wiemann I’d say is all effort and running with very little ability. If you compare the two you can’t say that Lawrence isn’t technically a better player, even if he very rare shows it.

I just wish there was a solution, we have no money to get any quality in so seem stuck with what we have!